Should the Iranian People Seize This Moment?

GOLDBERG: They’re working on the delivery system, not just to hit Israel or Europe. They want to hit the continental United States. Can’t allow that to happen.

TALEBLU: The Islamic Republic means what it says when it says, “Death to Israel.”

LAPID: Eventually, we will attack Iran’s nuclear facility because there’s no other choice.

HULATA: Israel cannot allow Iran to go nuclear. Israel is committed to defend ourselves by ourselves. And we will do whatever it takes with whatever we have so that Iran does not become a nuclear power.

DUBOWITZ: This is “The Iran Breakdown”. So let’s break it down. So the last week, US and Israeli forces have hit the heart of the Islamic Republic’s power, from Fordow and Natanz to Evin Prison and the IRGC [Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps], Ministry of Intelligence and Basij headquarters. Khamenei has gone dark. He’s in a bunker. The Islamic Republic is on the defensive.

But moments like this can go two ways, collapse or crackdown. And is this the moment the opposition seizes or the one where the regime survives and becomes even more brutal? Joining me today is Mehdi Parpanchi. He’s one of the sharpest voices covering Iran today and the executive editor of Iran International, an indispensable, 24/7 Persian language channel that the regime fears most. We’ll talk about what is breaking inside the regime and what might be rising to replace it.

I’m your host, Mark Dubowitz, and this is “The Iran Breakdown”. So let’s break it down. Mehdi, welcome. So wonderful to have you.

PARPANCHI: Thank you so much for having me.

DUBOWITZ: Thank you. And I know how busy you’ve been, 24/7, producing the news that Iranians need to see and Americans need to see. So, Mehdi, I want to begin before we get into the issue with your background. I mean, how did you get into this position? Tell us a little bit about your background, where you’re from originally.

PARPANCHI: Absolutely.

DUBOWITZ: Where you grew up and your experience in the news business and how you got to Iran International.

PARPANCHI: Sure. Absolutely. I’m born in Tabriz, northwest of Iran, 1970 actually. So I left Iran in 2000. I joined BBC 2003, BBC Farsi Service and I was there for about fifteen years, starting from translation and also presenting news on radio. At the time, it was only radio BBC Farsi didn’t have a TV service. It started in the year of 2009 actually. And I was with BBC until 2018 for fifteen years. Then I joined RFE/RL [Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty] based in Prague, Radio Farda, which is, unfortunately, they don’t, it’s very limited output they have right now after the shutdown of the IRGC. I’m sorry, USAGM, [U.S. Agency for Global Media] my apologies. USAGM. And you know that VOA [Voice of America] is not around anymore. Very limited service. So I was with RFE/RL for about two years from 2018 until 2020 as Iran service director. And then I joined Iran International and I’m here now, basically.

DUBOWITZ: But Mehdi, It just struck me. I mean, you lived in Iran from 1970 to 2000?

PARPANCHI: Yes, 30 years actually, yes.

DUBOWITZ: So you were actually. Wow. So you’re there 30 years. So you’re nine years under the Shah.

PARPANCHI: Seven, eight.

DUBOWITZ: Seven, eight years. OK. And then and then for all those years under the Islamic Republic. What did you do in the Islamic Republic professionally? And what was it like?

PARPANCHI: It was mostly studying, of course. I was in university until when I finished my university, which I did electronics, had nothing to do with journalism. Then for about five years, I was doing some private business until I left Iran. It was two years after Khatami basically became president. That was the time that I thought no more, basically. We had a lot of high hopes really on reformism, hoping or believing that Khatami would be able to do something meaningful, but it didn’t happen. After two years, I left Iran and I went to United Kingdom. I was in London until 2018, which I left to Prague.

DUBOWITZ: So let’s talk a little bit about Iran International, because, I mean, it has been an extraordinary success story. And certainly, I think, as you alluded to, with the shutdown and the defunding of some of these other outlets, Voice of America Persian Service and Radio Farda, and some of the other, even BBC Persian service, which I know is still operating, but certainly talk a little bit about its reach and its objectivity.

But I think Iran International has really become indispensable, not only for those outside of Iran who are wanting to find out what is actually taking place inside the country, but more importantly for Iranians. So tell us a little bit about Iran International, how it got started, and also talk also a little bit about, well, more than a little bit about the threats that you and your colleagues have faced at Iran International from the regime.

PARPANCHI: Yes, I mean Iran International started as a, they started I think with four or five hours of news and also documentaries, features from London. Then it expanded gradually until it became a 24/7 news channel. It’s been like five years now that we are doing 24/7 news bulletins top of every hour live, that’s something that no other broadcaster have done so or is able to do so, I mean I don’t know, but there is there’s no other news outlet 24/7. There is a news channel inside Iran IRIB [Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting] it is 24/7 but they are not doing it.

DUBOWITZ: So this is the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting?

PARPANCHI: Exactly, the state broadcast.

DUBOWITZ: The one that the Israeli Air Force actually bombed, is that correct?

PARPANCHI: They bombed it, exactly.

DUBOWITZ: But they’re still broadcasting?

PARPANCHI: They are still broadcasting, but from another studio.

DUBOWITZ: Yeah.

PARPANCHI: But that IRIB news channel is not a really 24/7 one, especially at the times of crisis, something is happening, they are not there. They would go for documentaries and stuff. Not now, and now they are starting to really become more of a 24/7 one, especially at the times of the crisis. For instance, in the past two weeks after Israel attacked, they were there. They were doing broadcast.

DUBOWITZ:  But this is the regime’s propaganda arm.

PARPANCHI: Exactly.

DUBOWITZ: So, I mean, one has to assume that there are many Iranians who don’t trust.

PARPANCHI: The level of trust is very high and it’s struggling in terms of the audienceship. They don’t have that much. Even if people watch them, they don’t trust them. This is reality, unfortunately. I mean, it is supposed to be the national broadcaster reflecting all voices, but it’s not happening, of course, under censorship.

There are good journalists working in IRIB I have to say I mean our colleagues they are trying to but that the system wouldn’t allow them to do what they are supposed to the real journalism is not happening inside Iran unfortunately they managed to kill it, I would say, not just for the state broadcaster, even for the newspapers, the other news outlets. There is not a real meaningful news outlet, be it broadcast or newspaper or website inside the country, unfortunately.

DUBOWITZ: But my recollection with because IRIB got actually sanctioned by the U.S. government.

PARPANCHI: Yes.

DUBOWITZ: And part of the reason it got sanctioned is because it was broadcasting forced confessions–

PARPANCHI: True.

DUBOWITZ: –of Iranians on the state TV. They were being hauled before the cameras. They were being made to confess to things that they didn’t do. And, you know, it was sort of in that respect it was torture TV.

PARPANCHI: Well, it is the mouthpiece of the regime. I mean, one has to say, name things, whatever they are, basically. So, yes, tortured confessions. Famously, I mean, you would may remember Ruhollah Zam, the journalist outside the country, which they kidnapped him from Iraq and they took him inside Iran. They aired so-called interviews with him. And unfortunately, at the end, they executed him, they killed him. And that was just an example, but there are plenty of others.

So it’s not a real broadcaster, and that’s why people do not believe in what they hear from it. I mean, I wouldn’t say nobody is watching it. People are still, you know, TV, you are changing channels and watching. But generally speaking, there is no trust and people are getting their news from outside broadcasters. Iran International is one of them, the major one, but then there are others like BBC, Radio Farda, the website is still active and also VOA, which, I mean, their website is being updated, but the TV operation has stopped.

DUBOWITZ: Okay, so Iran International, 24/7, indispensable for Iranians. What does your audience inside Iran look like now? I mean, I’ve always sort of thought of this, you know, sort of 80% roughly of Iranians despise the regime, 20% roughly support it. I mean, you know, you can look at the numbers in different ways, but I think that’s sort of a reasonable breakdown, I think you would agree.

Is it that it’s the 80% of the opposition of the regime that watches Iran International, 20% that watches IRIB? Or do you get a sense even before this current conflict that they were they were actually regime supporters who are also watching Iran International? What is the audience breakdown and what kind of content is actually on Iran International as a result of giving your audience, obviously, the content that they’re looking for?

PARPANCHI: Unfortunately, it’s impossible to do scientific surveys inside Iran, so we don’t have exact numbers. We have indications. There have been some surveys outside the country, like Gamaan Institution or Status Institution, which is in DC actually, they have done some surveys. We never commissioned one, because when you commission a survey, it becomes kind of in favor of you, basically. So we’ve never done one. Inside Iran, it’s impossible. If it was possible, we would have definitely done so, but generally speaking everything indicates that we have a vast majority of audience inside the country. I can very comfortably say that the population of US is about 340 million correct? Iran is just shy of 190 something million. When you compare the major broadcasters in US, the five top ones, I can comfortably say that the number of audience that we have in Iran is twice all of them combined.

DUBOWITZ: Wow.

PARPANCHI: Without any doubt. So you are talking about like 10, 15 million weekly audience in normal times. At the times of crisis like this, I mean, I think everybody is watching, basically. We were the only outlet,  24/7 outlet, broadcasting live updates of what is going on inside Iran. Where is being hit, what is happening, where can people get their fuel? Every update basically on the ground, there was no other outlet for the people to feed them with the necessary information, with what they need. So at those times, I would say everybody is watching, no matter if they like us or not. We were the only news source available, 24/7, on all platforms, basically. So accessibility is important.

DUBOWITZ: Right. Well, you talk about accessibility and platforms, so that’s actually very interesting, because there were reports that the regime had shut down the internet. So, obviously, access to the internet, to social media, to messaging platforms was limited. You broadcast via satellite as well as online, correct?

PARPANCHI: Yes.

DUBOWITZ: So many Iranians have satellite dishes, and I would assume it’s much more difficult for the regime to block a satellite signal than it is obviously to shut down the internet.

PARPANCHI: They still do local jamming. It’s happening and we had reports that they were doing it in the past two weeks.

DUBOWITZ: So driving trucks around in order to jam? Is that how they do it?

PARPANCHI: Exactly. But from one neighborhood to another, the trucks. But the situation in Iran, considering the continuous bombing of major cities, so you could easily say that even the apparatus who was doing this, they were also disrupted as well. So, however, local jamming was reported. It was happening.

But like I said, it’s like a couple of hours this neighborhood, a couple of hours the other neighborhood. So it did not stop people from watching us. And because we are 24/7, even if you lose it a couple of hours, then you will be able to see it. On the internet shutdown I have to say that it was nothing like the one we had, when was it, like four or five years ago?

DUBOWITZ: In “Women, Life, Freedom?”

PARPANCHI: Before that, actually. “Women, Life, Freedom,” yes, internet was kind of restricted. But before that, you would remember, I think it was the Bloody November, it was in 2019.

DUBOWITZ: 2019, right.

PARPANCHI: At that time, there was like 10 days of total shutdown. This time, it was not like that because even when there was shutdown, people were still sending us WhatsApp messages, and we had family members I know, not me, but I know that other people were able to talk to their families through WhatsApp. So people were still getting something.

But I don’t think that government did the shutdown because of the videos that they were receiving or to stop the people from communication. I think the major reason was cyberattacks, because some of the banks were under attack. Sepah Bank, Bank of Sepah. What we hear is “it doesn’t exist anymore,” basically. The hackers just deleted it, all the information.

DUBOWITZ: Wow, I did not know that. I worked on getting Bank Sepah sanctioned a number of years ago with the Treasury Department and Congress. So to think that it actually doesn’t exist anymore is pretty extraordinary.

And certainly there were reports that the regime also had made it illegal to use WhatsApp and Telegram and other channels. Again, you think fear of both messaging and Iranians using it to mobilize and potentially mount protests, but also more importantly, because they were afraid that it had been penetrated?

PARPANCHI: Yes. The major reason was hacking, I think. The infrastructure was under attack. And also, it looks like, they were, the understanding was that Israel has human intelligence on the ground. It was obvious because many things happened. I mean, it was just spectacular, the number of attacks the Israelis had using drones inside the country, operated from inside the country. So they had people on the ground, and the assumption was that the communication is happening through internet. So that’s why they stopped it, we believe.

Definitely, they wanted to stop people from communicating, but the major reasons were cyberattack and the effort to cut down the communication between Israel and those who were operating inside.

DUBOWITZ: Well, by the way, it’s worth mentioning, I should have mentioned that Bank Sapah and a number of these other banks are not normal commercial banks. They’re also being used to finance nuclear proliferation, missiles, terrorism. I mean, these are the reasons the U.S. government designated them.

I want to ask you before, because what I really want to spend a lot of time focusing on is what’s happening on the ground, how are Iranians feeling? What is sort of the messaging that you’re getting and how you are communicating to Iranians in your reporting? But just in terms of Iran International, the regime despises Iran International and has gone after Iran International. Tell us a little bit about that and your colleagues and the threats they faced and their overall safety.

PARPANCHI: Yeah. I mean, you using your word, they despise us so much that they have designated Iran International as a terrorist organization. I’m sure you are aware.

DUBOWITZ: They’ve designated me as an economic terrorist.

PARPANCHI: Yes, absolutely.

DUBOWITZ: We both have a badge of honor there.

(LAUGHTER)

PARPANCHI: We are wearing the same badge, more or less. So the pressure is always on us. Sometimes it goes up or down. In the past two weeks, unfortunately, it has been going up, basically. It was not just Iran International. There were other broadcasters. BBC reported it. Actually, even before Israel attacked, BBC reported that a number of their journalists are, not journalists, the families of the journalists are summoned and then, you know, the prosecution, persecution.

DUBOWITZ: But this was before the recent attacks.

PARPANCHI: Even before.

DUBOWITZ: I mean, I remember Iran International.

PARPANCHI: It was like one week before the attack.

DUBOWITZ: Right, but even, I’m even talking, you know, months and years ago where Iran International was targeted in London.

PARPANCHI: Yes.

DUBOWITZ: One of your journalists, they tried to assassinate him. He was stabbed. He had to move out of London. You had to move your headquarters.

PARPANCHI: To DC for a while.

DUBOWITZ: To DC for a while out of London, because if I recall, MI5 or Scotland Yard said that they couldn’t protect Iran International, which is remarkable that British authorities were telling you, you can’t stay here because we can’t protect you. But then obviously you ended up moving back. So your company has been under threat for many years. Your journalists have been under threat, threats against their families who still are in Iran. So all of that preceded the recent war, but it certainly has intensified.

PARPANCHI: Yes absolutely just a comment on what you said about the British police or the counter tourism police they have been very supportive. What happened at the time was that our building was in a in a center which it was like a business center with hundreds of other companies working there so they eventually got to the conclusion that our existence is a threat for the others as well.

So they have been very supportive, I have to say, but at that time, unfortunately, the situation, and I have to say that they were protecting the entire business park. I mean, the armed police, you know, that it’s not a usual scene in UK. I mean, U.K. police, they don’t, you don’t see them armed in these places unlike US. But it was heavily fortified, I would say. There were huge metal barriers. We were becoming disruption for the entire business park, unfortunately.

DUBOWITZ: Right.

PARPANCHI: That’s what happened. I mean, they continued it for some five, six weeks. And then somebody was arrested, a Chechen. Somebody traveled from Austria actually to London and he was arrested, long story. And he’s still in custody basically. He’s in prison waiting for his court case. A week after that, the counter-terrorism police concluded that the level of threat and risk, credible, imminent threat is so high that they advised us to stop operating from that building. And that was the moment that we decided to bring everything to US.

It was very difficult, but we did not go off-air even for one second and we are very proud of that moment really because there is no planning, no nothing but the incredible efforts of our journalists, and bravery, and their commitment to the mission to the job that they are doing managed us basically enabled us to stay on air for the entire nine months that we were in DC and then we moved to another safe location again in UK but British police have been incredibly supportive in terms of making that place safe.

So that aside, that kind of physical threat has unfortunately have been continuing for the past like three, four years, attempts on people’s lives, basically on journalists’ lives. One of our colleagues was stabbed in London. Two people were arrested for that. I mean, they managed to escape the country. I think they were Romanian citizens, but then they were extradited to UK and they are still in custody waiting for their court.

And this has been continuous for the past two, three years. As we are speaking, a number of our journalists in London are basically receiving 24/7 protection, moving from one safe house to another every single week. So it’s a very, very real threat when we are talking about threat. It’s not just, you know, intimidation or, you know, sending messages.

DUBOWITZ: No, it’s death threats and attempted assassinations.

PARPANCHI: Exactly.

DUBOWITZ: Yeah. It is remarkable. I mean, you know, a number of viewers who listen to “The Iran Breakdown,” I think, are very aware of the brutality of the regime. We’ve had previous episodes about the global assassination campaigns that the regime has launched against Iranian opposition, including Iranian-Americans on our soil, as well as other opponents of the regime. But it still strikes me to hear it.

I mean, you’re a media outlet. You’re reporting. You know, you’re not owned and operated by the United States government or the CIA or Mossad. I mean, you’re an independent media outlet just reporting the facts to the Iranian people about what’s going on inside Iran. And what has been going on inside Iran during the latest war, and performing a real public service to Iranians so that they understand the truth rather than the propaganda from IRIB. And yet the regime just is so obsessed with Iran International that it’s threatening and attempting to kill journalists. And it’s quite remarkable.

PARPANCHI: It is nothing new, Mark. Sadly, I mean, this is in the DNA of the Islamic, I don’t want to use these words as a journalist, but that’s true.

DUBOWITZ: In the DNA of the regime.

PARPANCHI: In the DNA of the Islamic Republic, the regime, yes. I mean, at the early days of – early months after the Islamic Revolution, they bombed a bookstore in London, at the heart of London, very close to Iranian embassy. Why? Because they were just selling books that were, you know, against Islamic Republic, you know, having like flags of not the Islamic Republic flag, you know, Iran’s flag with–

DUBOWITZ: The lion and the sun.

PARPANCHI: –the lion and the sun. I mean, it was just a bookstore. And remember, this we are talking about like 45 years ago, there was no communication, there was no WhatsApp, there was no Twitter, no nothing. The impact that that bookstore had was very, very, very local. It’s just a bookstore at the corner of London. They bombed it and they killed the owner, and if I’m not wrong, his son basically got killed in that explosion.

DUBOWITZ: And all these years later, I mean, they went after Salman Rushdie.

PARPANCHI: Exactly.

DUBOWITZ: A fatwa on him, and then just recently tried to kill him on American soil. And Salman Rushdie is an author who wrote a book, which I tried to read, by the way, and I didn’t understand. I think Khomeini never quite understood that people in the West didn’t really understand that book, and he was really making too much of it. But the fact is, right, they’ve been going after journalists, and writers,–

PARPANCHI: Inside and outside the country.

DUBOWITZ: –and singers, and athletes inside and outside the country, right? Not people who are engaged in the military or in the security establishment or who are working in intelligence, but people who are in culture and sports and entertainment. And they just see them as such a threat to the regime because the regime has such little legitimacy inside the country. But now I want to ask you the legitimacy question.

PARPANCHI: You said singers. Some people may not believe it. I mean, Fereydoun Farrokhzad was a singer in Germany.

DUBOWITZ: Right.

PARPANCHI: They killed him. They killed poets. They killed writers. They killed–

DUBOWITZ: Actors.

PARPANCHI: –translators, inside Iran and outside Iran. This is unfortunately–

DUBOWITZ: They killed Salman Rushdie’s translator.

PARPANCHI: Exactly. In Turkey. Was it in Turkey? I think. So, yeah, unfortunately, this is, the truth is that this is in the DNA of the Islamic Republic. It’s nothing new, we are not the first. I hope we will be the last. I mean, I hope that this kind of intimidation and attempts to kill people, innocent people, you know, poets, what are they doing? Or a writer, or a journalist. But yeah, I mean, it’s important for your viewers to understand that when we are talking about the Islamic Republic, what kind of beast that is. And unfortunately, it’s not properly reported in Western media. In Western media, the image that you see is like another political system. Maybe a little bit authoritative, okay, but authoritative with another political system.

DUBOWITZ: Well, you’ve got, I mean, guys like Javad Zarif and Araghchi running around the world, you know, speak, English, well, very – many people, Western educated, they’ve studied in our universities, they studied in the UK. And they have this sort public face of the regime, and they send out these people to lie on behalf of the regime and you get the sense and they’re invited by the way on CNN and the Columbia University and the Council of Foreign Relations, and they’re legitimized and given a platform and the sort of sense that, oh, we were dealing with these Western facing government officials. This is not the regime.

PARPANCHI: And it’s still going on.

DUBOWITZ: And it’s still going on. I mean, it’s remarkable. But what we’re dealing with is the regime, Khamenei, the Revolutionary Guards, the Ministry of Intelligence, the Basij, the Internal Security Forces, the Ministry of Justice. I mean, this is the brutality of the regime.

And yet this regime is, because it is losing not only face, but it’s losing its core capabilities, its nuclear, military, security capabilities over twelve days to the “hated Zionists of Israel,” who they’ve always mocked and ridiculed and talked about exterminating. They are getting seemingly even more brutal and repressive. I mean, I saw Fars report, 700 people arrested yesterday. Two were executed yesterday. I want to ask you–

PARPANCHI: Three.

DUBOWITZ: Three were executed yesterday. And I imagine, unfortunately, we’re going to see more and more of that. What – how are Iranians reacting to Israeli strikes on these domestic targets, these nodes of the security apparatus? And, you know, I know the Israelis are taking great care to try to minimize civilian casualties in going after the security and military apparatus. But Iranians must be scared and terrified. They’re in a war. They’re having to flee Tehran on the advice of President Trump.

Is the messaging trying to separate the regime from the people? Is it working? Is it backfiring? And what effect do these strikes on Evin Prison, on IRIB, on the security apparatus, what effect do they have on the public psyche? Is it positive? And just wrapping all into this, because I think it’s all related, are these military strikes, are they opening up political space for the opposition? Or are they making it more difficult for the opposition to mount the kind of street protests and advocacy that I think we would all hope to see in wearing away this regime and potentially ending it?

PARPANCHI: Let’s focus on the first part of the question and then go to opposition. I think it’s not easy to really gauge the public opinion, what people are thinking. It’s mixed. I mean, you are talking about 90 something million people. Not everybody feels the same. But generally speaking, and I think comfortably one can say the majority of people, what we were seeing in the very beginning of the campaign when IRGC commanders got killed, you know, in there bed at the dark of the night, it was one of a jubilance, basically, people were happy that this is happening.

Again, I’m not saying 100%, but I can easily say vast majority of people were happy because these were the same commanders who suppressed and oppressed the Iranian population for the past, you know, 40-something years. Whenever there was an uprising or demonstration in these streets, we were just talking about the killings of the opposition figures. Not just opposition figures. I mean, yes, they have killed many politicians, but we were just talking about singers.

DUBOWITZ: Yeah. And ordinary Iranians who took to the streets in 2009 saying, “Where’s my vote.” In 2017, ‘18, ‘19, ‘20, “Where’s my paycheck?” Iranian women taking to the streets, “End this gender apartheid.” I mean ordinary Iranians who just want their civil rights. They just want to lead a decent life. They just want jobs. And yet the regime has cracked down and mercilessly killed and maimed thousands of them, thrown them into prison, tortured them, rape the woman, launched chemical attacks against Iranian schoolgirls to break the back of “Women, Life, Freedom” and this is a brutal regime.

So the first few nights of jubilation, watching the Israelis take out the men that have been so oppressive. By the way, it’s remarkable to me, incredibly effective at repression but incredibly ineffective at actually defending the country and fighting against these hated Zionists who they had ridiculed. I mean, if they had spent all those resources into building a country and giving defending the country, things might have gone differently. But instead, it seems to have been billions and billions of dollars on repression and seemingly very ineffectual on national defense.

PARPANCHI: Well, killing defenseless people is not a very difficult thing to do, really. I mean, we say that very effective in suppressing people, but that’s easy.

DUBOWITZ: Right. They are the man with the guns.

PARPANCHI: You just kill people and then they will disperse. But we will get to that. I think it’s very important. We need to talk about “Women, Life, Freedom” movement, which I think was very successful at the end of the day, the one who withdraw was Islamic Republic, not the people. And I think we need to discuss that because that’s very connected to your question.

But in terms of, you said that, do people differentiate or see a difference between Iran and Islamic Republic or the people and the regime? I think this has happened many years ago. There is a divorce between the population and the political system, the Islamic Republic.

DUBOWITZ: Right.

PARPANCHI: This is a known fact. People don’t see Iran and Islamic Republic the same. And I think maybe some people know it, but even the Islamic Republic itself, from the very inception of it, from the very beginning, they have also differentiated Islamic Republic from Iran. I mean when you look at the institutions like IRGC for instance there, is no Iran in the name of IRGC you know it’s like Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps but if you translate Sepāh-e Pāsdārān-e Enqelāb-e Eslāmi as like verbatim translation that means “the army which protects the Islamic revolution,” not Iran there is no Iran in it or that kind of bogus nationalism that they are trying to spread it and trying to say that Iran is under attack, the Iranian nation is under attack. People don’t buy it because the same system, the same Islamic Republic have been very much against any sort of nationalism.

DUBOWITZ: But when people see the Islamic Republic under attack by the United States and Israel, taking out nuclear facilities, taking out military and security commanders and infrastructure, going after the nodes of internal repression apparatus. Clearly, no one likes when their country is getting bombed. But is your sense that people are making that distinction, that the United States and Israel is going after the regime?

PARPANCHI: Mark, I can play you hundreds of audio messages. And I’m being very, very cautious when I say hundreds. From the people who were, it’s not me, because talking about collateral damage or civilian deaths is not easy. Even one death is tragedy, that’s for sure. But we have been receiving plenty of messages. We didn’t even play them out on TV, to be honest with you, because of the sensitivity of it. But many people were extremely sad about civilian deaths, of course. But then they were saying that, “This is the price that we have to pay. We cannot fight with the Islamic regime. I mean, it’s impossible. We are being killed anyway.”

In any uprising, there has been hundreds of deaths. Women, Life – when was it?

DUBOWITZ: Freedom. 2022, ’23 that’s right.

PARPANCHI: “Women, Life Freedom.” That’s like, 551, if I’m not wrong. Over 500 deaths. Majority of them very young, I mean, some 65, 70% of those who got killed in the streets are under 30 years old. About, I think, 65 or 70 of them were under eighteen. We are talking about kids being targeted and killed in the street. So people see this, and people are, I mean, like I said, this is not me. I’m really quoting many, many messages. People were saying that, “Yes, this is this is a tragedy, but this is the price that we have to pay.”

In one of the messages I was listening, it was very – I mean, for me, it was kind of shocking that the person who we don’t know who these people are, you know, they’re just sending messages on the WhatsApp, you know, ordinary Iranian people who are watching us. One of them were saying that during Second World War, some 70 million people died. The reason was that the world didn’t want to live under Nazi Germany, basically. If those people were not got killed, then the entire world now was living under Third Reich.

So this is the way that people, again, I’m not generalizing by any means, I’m not saying everybody, but I can easily say that a vast majority of people could see the problem here, that what is happening. The civilian death, of course, is not defendable, but they were seeing it as a price that sometimes – when you look at the social media, I mean, nobody is controlling social media. Go there and see what people are saying in the past 24 hours after the ceasefire. The natural reaction should be that people should be happy.

DUBOWITZ: Yeah, what a relief it’s over.

PARPANCHI: But what you see is very, very deep disappointment that, “Why did this stop?” It’s very strange I know that most people don’t want I mean wouldn’t – probably won’t believe it or because this is not what they want to hear. There is a common wisdom here in DC let’s say in West but we are in DC, let’s talk about DC. You have plenty of you know Iran experts there are premises maybe hundreds of books, hundreds of articles are written most of them when you boil them down they will become like three four volumes and they are based on some premises about Iran, I’m not saying they are all wrong. Some of them were right, were correct at a certain time, right? Not now. But people don’t distinguish it. And then there is a common wisdom about Iran that when you talk against it, it is not acceptable. People don’t want to hear it.

DUBOWITZ: So what do you think some of those false assumptions are about today’s Iran and the distinction between the regime and the people? I mean, one of the things that is – I’ve fought it for many years is the sense in Washington that there is a reformist element of the regime and that somehow we can just bolster the moderates and the pragmatists against the hardliners, that this would be a moderate pragmatic regime with which we could do not only nuclear deals, but if we flood them with cash at the end of the day, we will reform it and turn Iran into a respectable member of the international community.

I mean big debates in Washington about reformists and my sense was as people were advocating for the reformists the Iranian people had moved along. They had moved on they had said reformists we don’t trust these–

PARPANCHI: Doesn’t exist.

DUBOWITZ: –mendacious reformists, they don’t exist, they’re part of the regime. They were calling for regime change long before anyone else in the West even started to think about that concept in Iran.

PARPANCHI: Absolutely.

DUBOWITZ: Is that fair is that one of the key assumptions absolutely that you’re talking about?

PARPANCHI: Absolutely. I think it is fading away now probably that you know reformist conservative or reformist principalist narrative I think it’s still there. It’s still there. I know that, you know, many, many Iran experts see whatever happens inside Iran through that lens, you know, reformist.

DUBOWITZ: Well, there’s a new version of it, Mehdi. The new version of it is that there are hardliners and hard hardliners.

PARPANCHI: Yes, yes.

DUBOWITZ: And so, you know, we’ve got the hardliners and that’s Khamenei and the Revolutionary Guards and the Ministry of Intelligence and the whole security apparatus and the Basij hardliners. But if somehow there was a change in Iran and the regime were to collapse, then you’d get the hard, hard liners. And then the Revolutionary Guards would take over. Khamenei would no longer be the supreme leader. There’d be no clerics in charge. And now you’d have a military dictatorship. And those guys are the hard, hard liners.

I also think that’s personally, I think it’s, again, another false distinction in not quite understanding that it’s the Revolutionary Guards and Khamenei are all hardliners and hard, hardliners. And they’ve been in charge of this regime apparatus that has been brutalizing Iranians for so many years. But I think what I want to get to is, you talked about this jubilation in the early days as the command structure gets taken out and the real despair with a ceasefire as people think to themselves, did America once again throw us under the bus for a nuclear deal with the mullahs? Is that the sentiment?

PARPANCHI: Yes, I see that. I argue against it, to be honest with you. But yes, definitely. There are many people. I mean, there were a lot of jokes about President Trump after that, make Iran great again post. And then the next day talking about, you know, we are not seeking regime change again.

DUBOWITZ: Actually, his post said, Mehdi, it’s really important for people to remember. He said, “It’s not politically correct to talk about regime change in Iran.”

PARPANCHI: Exactly.

DUBOWITZ: But then he went on to say something to the effect of, well, you know, this is–

PARPANCHI: Why not?

DUBOWITZ:” Why not?” I mean, it looks to me like it’s inevitable. And unless these guys get their act together, it looks like it will be inevitable that one day the Islamic Republic will end up on the ash heap of history like the Soviet Union did. And then he said, you know, “make Iran great again.” And to me, that’s a sort of call, not necessarily to the clerics and the Revolutionary Guards to make Iran great again, because I don’t think the president believes they could.

PARPANCHI: But that’s what President Trump said. He said that if the current, something on these lines, that if the current regime is not able to make Iran great again, then why not think about regime change?

DUBOWITZ: Right.

PARPANCHI: Something like that.

DUBOWITZ: Right. No, I’m not sure that’s his policy, and I’m not sure that’s the policy of the Trump administration. But I am worried that we’re now going back to Oman for another round of negotiations with the regime. The nuclear side of me, I’ve been working on it for 22  years, thinks that it’s important to get a deal that strips the regime of all its remaining nuclear capabilities, fully dismantles the program with no enrichment and reprocessing.

We’ve certainly got to end their nuclear weapons program, and I think that is U.S. policy, right? That is the central mission of U.S. policy. I do think the Israelis have a slightly different policy, not only to get rid of the nuclear weapon, but to severe damage to the missile program, and to the security apparatus, and to the regime that has for decades launched these wars against Israel and killed and maimed thousands of Israelis. And they certainly were much more open about the fact in their messaging that they were going after the internal repression apparatus of the regime. They were actually saying that, and the IDF was actually listing that.

PARPANCHI: And that’s what they did.

DUBOWITZ: And that’s what they did. But I am concerned that we go do a nuclear deal, we give tens of billions of dollars to the regime, and they use it to rebuild not only their nuclear program and their missile program and their security apparatus, but they survive, they’re wounded, they’re angry, and now they’re on the hunt for Iranians.

PARPANCHI: Well, that’s what, I mean, Iran, after President Trump came back to the office, basically, when was it, like five months ago. Their game was to drag on the negotiations until they outlive President Trump from the office, basically, and keep the infrastructure. That’s the key, to keep Iran’s nuclear programs infrastructure.

And I think they were thinking that they are becoming successful, basically. I mean, after two months and negotiations, which it got nowhere, there was still hope that they will continue these negotiations, hopefully, forever. But it didn’t happen. I mean, President Trump said in two months and on day 61, Israel attacked. I think we need to look at it. Now it’s easier really to see what was happening, because what happened within those two months? You had a gentleman going to Oman or in Italy talking to Iranians who is not a career diplomat, is not a nuclear scientist. just one person, one man going for negotiating.

DUBOWITZ: You’re talking about Steve Witkoff.

PARPANCHI: Steve Witkoff, right. Again, when you look at it now, I think it never meant to be a meaningful negotiation. It was probably just saying that Iran should give up its nuclear program. There was mixed messages.

DUBOWITZ: Well, Mehdi, I got to tell you, Khamenei made a huge mistake because the Americans made an offer, one page, And it was a really good offer for Khamenei. He could have temporarily kept enrichment in Natanz while rendering his below ground facilities, quote, “non-operational,” which could mean anything from rip out the infrastructure just to turn off the lights. And then, you know, Araghchi would have negotiated all the way down to we’ll just flip the lights.

And then there’s going to be this sort of joint enrichment facility built in three, four years time after President Trump’s no longer president. And of course, he gets to keep his enrichment capability. This thing never gets built. Or if it gets built, Khamenei never agrees to actually do it. And then he’s counting on the fact that the next president, Democratic or Republican, is not going to have the resolve that President Trump has demonstrated. So Khamenei badly miscalculated. He should have taken that deal.

PARPANCHI: I’m not a 100% sure about the accuracy of that report, to be honest with you, Mark. I don’t believe there was such an offer on the table.

DUBOWITZ: Okay interesting.

PARPANCHI: To be honest with you. Let me tell you this, that the idea of consortium came from the reformists.

DUBOWITZ: Yeah.

PARPANCHI: That doesn’t exist, really. But the circles that used to be reformists, they are nobodies now. They are completely irrelevant in terms of the political power. What they do is exist. They talk. That idea came from those circles at least three weeks before that report was published, maybe three, four weeks. I mean, I heard that.

DUBOWITZ: I mean, it’s an old idea. It’s been floating around for decades.

PARPANCHI: And then Mousavian wrote about it. Exactly. So I’m not a hundred percent sure about the accuracy of that report, to be honest with you. As far as I remember, it was only in one news outlet.

DUBOWITZ: But let’s assume for the sake of argument that the United States is going to sit down with Iran again in Oman with the regime, and there’s going to be some kind of negotiation. Whatever that negotiation looks like, whatever final deal looks like. We spent a lot of time on this podcast talking about nuclear issues. And I don’t want to talk too much about nuclear issues for this very reason. And that is because I want to talk about the Iranian people. I want to talk about the sense from Iranians based on your reporting and your communication with them, is there a sense that once again that they’re being abandoned by an American president–

PARPANCHI: There is, yes.

DUBOWITZ: –who’s focused on nukes and not focused on providing maximum support for the Iranian people in order to give them what they need both rhetorically and materially to be able to undermine, weaken, and if history smiles on them the way it smiled on Reagan with the Soviet Union, bring down this Islamic Republic and give them the freedom and prosperity they so deserve?

PARPANCHI: That’s true. Some people believe it. Ordinary Iranians, a big number of them, judging by what we see on social media and also the messages that we receive. But then there is another narrative, if you like, or belief that some people think that what we are seeing, what we witnessed in the past two weeks, is just a chapter of a new book. Basically, everything that has happened before Israel’s strike, the recent campaign on Iran, was something, but now we are in a new era. This is a new chapter, sorry, this is a new, basically, book. And that campaign, the two weeks campaign, is only the beginning of it.

This is going to continue Israel will continue what they did you know, we don’t know, in one week or in two months time, but this is going to continue and this is what we hear from many, you know, ordinary people but mostly from analysts that Israel found or did what many, many people believe that it’s impossible basically. Nobody really saw this coming people knew that Israel can do some strikes maybe in a day, a couple of hours what they did after the so-called “True Promise II” and also 1 you know there were some limited strikes but people believe that this is the maximum that Israel can do they can’t really have a sustained campaign. That’s what they did, and also on Iranian side again people believe that the Iran’s defense system is strong.

DUBOWITZ: Right.

PARPANCHI: They will be able to resist. And that didn’t happen either. And this is one of those moments, again, that, I mean, yes, the ceasefire started. That’s what they say. They say ceasefire, right? But there will be a lot of questions inside the country. I’m not talking about those who oppose the Islamic Republic from its support base.

DUBOWITZ: Yeah.

PARPANCHI: There are big question marks. Now they see, you know, what happened to all those air defense systems? I mean, Iran, I mean, the Islamic Republic was bragging about its defense system, even in the city, just Google it and you will see so many studies about Iran’s defense systems. It’s not just one or two, you know, I mean, more than 10, if you like. You know, Khorramshahr, I mean, Khordad 15, Khordad third, Talaash, Bavar, so on and so forth, Majid. What happened to all these air defense systems? And now the question comes that, this is the corruption which will kill the Islamic Republic because billions and billions of dollars were spent–

DUBOWITZ: Yeah, you stole all the money.

PARPANCHI: –in all those so-called defense systems, and they don’t exist. And people have the experience of it. Can you give me an example?

DUBOWITZ: And Iran International, I think, has done a remarkable job reporting on the corruption of the Islamic Republic over many years.

PARPANCHI: Oh absolutely.

DUBOWITZ: And I think it’s no surprise to Iranians inside or outside the country that billions of dollars have been stolen by regime insiders.

PARPANCHI: People have seen this before. Let me – during Corona, for instance, Iran started six programs to develop vaccines, right?

DUBOWITZ: Right.

PARPANCHI: Rouhani was in the office at the time. They gave one billion dollars to some of these institutions, all controlled by IRGC or Khamenei’s office. One billion. When you say one billion dollars in Iran, I mean, that’s equivalent to something about five, six billion dollars in US because of the purchase power parity, you know, PPP if you apply it to it. What happened, not even one, I mean, there was, I don’t know, Noora vaccine, Iran vaccine, I don’t know, Fakhravac vaccine, you know, so on and so forth, but there was zero product coming out of it. The money was gone, that one billion dollar gone.

DUBOWITZ: Yeah, thousands of Iranians died.

PARPANCHI: Now people are seeing that. So all these defense systems, it was something the same as those Corona vaccines. you spent billions and billions of people’s money on these air defense systems, it was zero impact basically there were they didn’t do anything. And then again people post questions about Iran’s proxy groups like Hezbollah you know Syria how much Iran spent there, the Islamic Republic. So now there are big, big question marks. I’m not talking about those who oppose the Islamic Republic.

DUBOWITZ: But the support base of the regime.

PARPANCHI: The support base. They say, “So what happened?” Hezbollah was supposed to be a deterrence for us, so Israel cannot strike us, because if they do, then Israel is– Hezbollah–

DUBOWITZ: Hezbollah stayed out–

PARPANCHI: Hezbollah–

DUBOWITZ: –Hamas eviscerated, the Houthis stayed out–

PARPANCHI: They’re all gone.

DUBOWITZ: –the Shiite militia stayed out. They’ve either been degraded, eviscerated, or they were too afraid to jump into the fray. So the entire axis of misery, which is what I call it, the axis of resistance, was not there. The air defenses were not there. The ballistic missiles were pretty deadly, but the Israeli pilots were hunting down missile launches and missiles over the 12-day war and destroyed some of the neighborhood of 50 to 60% of the capabilities. And Khamenei then also spent, I think estimates are half a trillion dollars on this nuclear program and it’s in flames. I mean, it’s been destroyed.

PARPANCHI: And that half a trillion is direct cost. I mean, when you think about the sanctions, imagine, I mean, the opportunities that Iran had in the past 50 years. Look at South Korea, for instance, Vietnam. I don’t know many other countries who developed in the past. It’s half a century when you talk about Iran’s Islamic Republic, the 46 years. Iran had plenty of opportunities. It could become another South Korea, for instance, but it’s not because of the Islamic Republic. So when you add those costs to the policies, the failed policies that–

DUBOWITZ: Trillions of dollars. Trillions of dollars. Well, I know you have a few minutes remaining, but I think what’s really interesting to me, and I think you’re touching on this, and just sort of wrap it up. I mean, Iran International broadcasting 24/7. Many cases, not the only, but the most watched provider for Iranians. As a result, it’s not just the opposition that’s watching you, it’s the support base, the regime that’s watching you. The fractures and fissures within that support base, which pre-existed the 12-day war.

PARPANCHI: Absolutely.

DUBOWITZ: Because clearly there’s a lot of disagreement within the support base. But one imagines that those fractures and fissures are widening or they’re intensifying, as people inside the port base say, “What happened? What happened, as you say, to all the trillions of dollars that were supposed to defend the Islamic Republic, that the Israelis and the Americans have destroyed in a matter of 12 days.”

It’s always hard to predict and look through the crystal ball or around the corner, as they say, but where do you see this heading? Do you see opportunities for more political space for the opposition? Do you see opportunities, maybe not in the coming days, but in weeks and months, for a new chapter, as you mentioned that’s going to lead to the downfall of the Islamic Republic? Are you more optimistic, Mehdi, today than you were, let’s say, two weeks ago?

PARPANCHI: I think that chapter has already started. We shouldn’t apply the same premises, the same beliefs that we had about Iran to this new era. A couple of days ago, I was reading an article in Wall Street Journal about the attack and its impact. It was quoting a number of very distinguished experts in DC. And all of them were saying that this is going to give more power to IRGC.

DUBOWITZ: Right.

PARPANCHI: Again, this is because IRGC already has everything. This attack, if anything, would just weaken IRGC because what else, there is nothing up to the grab for the IRGC to get. You may say the president will be from IRGC, for instance. But the Office of President is–

DUBOWITZ: Useless.

PARPANCHI: –I mean, it’s just nothing. It’s just a facade. It doesn’t exist or the parliament for that matter. All of these have become–

DUBOWITZ: If anything, the IRGC doesn’t want to be the president because then they’re going to take the blame because Khamenei has always been very effective at using the Office of Presidency to deflect blame from the regime. But as you say, I mean, they have everything. So the notion that somehow the IRGC is going to be strengthened, I think, again, is another Washington assumption. What about the rally around the flag assumption, the notion that Iranian people are rallying around the flag?

PARPANCHI: I don’t think it exists, to be honest.

DUBOWITZ: They may be rallying around the flag.

PARPANCHI: We witnessed it.

DUBOWITZ: Yeah.

PARPANCHI: Look at what happened in the past two weeks, which flag Iranians rallied.

DUBOWITZ: That’s the key.

PARPANCHI: I can give you an example. I mean, remember “Women, Life, Freedom:” Movement, right?

DUBOWITZ: Right.

PARPANCHI: You had a hundred thousand people gathering in Germany, in Berlin.

DUBOWITZ: Lion and the sun.

PARPANCHI: In this city, in DC, every Saturday there were demonstrations. A number of them, a good number of them, I can say at least ten of them gathered some 20 thousand people, in DC okay. And then you had Toronto, I think you are from Toronto.

DUBOWITZ: Yeah, “Tehranto.”

PARPANCHI: “Tehranto.” We had 50 thousand people in a number of times and how many people went to anti-war protests in the past couple of days in many cities there were you know basically invitations from political groups for anti-war demonstrations.

DUBOWITZ: Inside Iran?

PARPANCHI: No, outside the country

DUBOWITZ: Outside Iran.

PARPANCHI: In this city, in DC, in London, in many major cities. People live in these cities and we have seen that power during “Women, Life Freedom.” Like I said, in this city, there were a number of demonstrations with 20 thousand people. Anti-war, we sent a reporter. There was like two, three people, no one.

Okay. So what that tells you, so what happened to that people will rally behind the flag? Why did it happen? I think these are questions that people should pose for themselves. And one of the things that you were talking about, the Western media and how they report Iran, I never saw any news outlet, any U.S. news outlet during those demonstrations. 20 thousand is a big number, and especially when it continues every single week.

DUBOWITZ: Yeah.

PARPANCHI: I never saw any TV channel, CNN, you name it, MSNBC, Fox. I never saw a reporter to come and report it. And there was a revolution happening inside the country, which succeeded, actually, because that was kind of a cultural revolution. There is no hijab anymore. Islamic Republic for the first time in its history, had to back down from one of its pillars.

DUBOWITZ: Yeah, that’s remarkable

PARPANCHI: I mean, look at the videos, the pictures which are coming from inside Iran. It’s as if you are walking in Washington. There is no hijab. That was a back down, basically, a defeat for the Islamic Republic. It’s not reform. It’s not that they decided, “okay, let’s–“

DUBOWITZ: No, they were defeated by the people.

PARPANCHI: They simply couldn’t resist. And I have no doubt, if there is a chance, they will come back to it. But they–

DUBOWITZ: It’s a remarkable point to end on because I think people don’t understand, who are not Iranian, that the hijab is a central pillar of the Islamic Republic and of Khomeini and Khamenei’s Islamist revolution. The fact that they back down on the hijab because of the women of Iran and the fathers and mothers and brothers who supported them, they backed down in hijab. They just had to back down in the face of Israeli and American attacks against their nuclear military and security apparatus.

It suggests to me Mehdi and maybe I’ll end with this, I hope people inside Iran are listening to this. I hope you’ll help us get it inside Iran because I think the Iranian people should know two things. The first is the Israeli operation was called Rising Lion. And one of the reasons for that is because there’s a line in the Torah about the lion. And after October 7^th, when Islamic Republic backed Hamas went in there and murdered, and tortured, and raped, and kidnapped Israelis, the Lion of Israel rose to protect her cubs. And again, there’s no more dangerous animal in the kingdom than the mother lion protecting her cubs. So that’s one reason for calling it rising lion as the lion has risen and the Israelis are there to protect themselves and their country against this axis of resistance or misery that Khamenei had built. And now they’ve gone in in 12 days and done such damage.

But Rising Lion, there’s another interpretation for that. Rising Lion is the lion on the flag, the flag of the pre-Islamic Republic, Iran, the lion and the sun. And if you, as we said earlier, the Israelis have been very careful in messaging, two very important things. One is we’re going after your security apparatus. And two is what we did was not just the success for Israel. It was a success for Iranians because those were Iranians on the ground who were working against the apparatus. They were Iranians who actually had buried deep inside the security and military apparatus and were working against the regime. I think that’s really important.

I am confident Israel’s way forward will not just include military and security and the nuclear program, but the Israelis have made supporting the Iranian people a central pillar of their Iran strategy. And when they make something a central pillar of their strategy, it is operationalized in very important ways. So there is one country in the world that is going to support the Iranian people and has and will continue to support the Iranian people, I think that’s Israel. And for those who thought Israel didn’t have the capabilities to do what is necessary, I think the 12 days of war against the Islamic Republic demonstrated that.

So I hope you get that message to Iranians inside the country. People are not forgetting them. At FDD we don’t forget them, and “The Iran Breakdown” will continue to feature these stories. Mehdi, I want to thank you. I want to thank you for your courage and for your colleagues and their courage. And I wish them all the safety and all the best. I know you all have families inside Iran.

PARPANCHI: Thank you.

DUBOWITZ: And I wish them safety and security. And I hope to one day do “The Iran Breakdown” in a free Tehran with you.

PARPANCHI: Absolutely. Thank you so much.

DUBOWITZ: Where we can celebrate.

PARPANCHI: Do I have one minute just to add something? I think there are fundamental changes are happening inside the country. And it’s not just now. For the past, I would say a decade, which needs to be seen. When you look at the uprising in 2017, ‘18, Dey uprising basically in Iranian calendar. And then you had Aban Blood in November in 2019 and then “Women, Life, Freedom” in 2022, ‘23, if I’m not wrong.

There were a big number of people killed. And when you look at the demography of those who killed in these demonstrations, you see that there is increasingly the number of very young people which are killed in these demonstrations is increased, basically going high, up and up and up. That must be seen, that the new generation, I’m not talking about, you know, I’m 50-something years old, but those who are 17, 18, 19 they simply do not want to accept what we went through, my generation went through. And these people are ready to go out and get killed for what they want.

I mean “Women, Life, Freedom” like I said was the first time in in the Islamic Republic’s history that they have to listen to the demand, which was basically hijab, no more hijab, we don’t want it. And they had it. So that was the first defeat. Because of the bravery of the new generation, women, and also the young generation, which is coming, they simply do not want this regime to continue.

And then the Islamic Republic has experienced another defeat. I mean, Syria was the next one. That was a very, very important moment in the psyche of the regime’s support base, actually. I mean, the other day we were chatting, I told you it was like the Afghanistan moment for Soviet Union when they had to come out. And now when you read the textbooks, one of the reasons for the Soviet Union to collapse was Afghanistan, evacuating Afghanistan. I think what we witnessed in the past two weeks is the third one. This is a big defeat for the Islamic Republic and it’s going to crush the morale of its support base. We are not talking about the opposition or those who don’t subscribe to the ideology that Islamic Republic is trying to spread. But from the support base, that’s going to be a big change. I would say we will witness very soon.

And just to end with this, I think because you said that Israel is probably in the entire world, one of the countries who supports people of Iran. Again, this is fact, you can ask from anybody, those who like it or not. I think in the Middle East, definitely from October 7 until now, Iranian population are the only one in the entire Middle East who have been supporting for Israel, supportive for Israel in the conflict. One of the reasons, again, is the policy of the Islamic Republic is spending billions and billions of dollars chanting, you know, “Death to Israel, death to America,” trying to destroy Israel as they have been trying to. And then people now see the result of it. So yeah, I would say that I am hopeful. And I think we will witness big changes in near future.

DUBOWITZ: Okay, Mehdi, thank you so much for joining me.

PARPANCHI: Thank you.

DUBOWITZ: Look forward to having you back.

PARPANCHI: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.