The Abrams Report

All right, thank you both for joining us. Walid, you`ve been following what these groups have been doing. Is this a serious problem?

WALID PHARES, PH.D, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: It is a serious problem, Dan, because the big picture is two days after the tsunami (UNINTELLIGIBLE) took place on all of the Web sites (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the jihadists linked to al Qaeda and their allies, there was one move to obstruct United States deployment of humanitarian assistance. That was two days after the tsunami occurred. And now with the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Islamic kind of related organization, one has to understand that they would want to (UNINTELLIGIBLE), if you want, to create a sort of a Taliban relief system and this morning (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the Web sites of the jihadists are talking about not accepting aid from the Americans and other Web sites, this afternoon, were talking about even fighting or shooting against Americans.

ABRAMS: And you`ve also said that some of these sites are suggesting that the Americans were responsible for the tsunami as well, right?

PHARES: It was striking, Dan, because not just the Web site, even Al- Arabiya TV three days ago aired a segment on the possibility — actually the story that this was projected by and created by combined effort by the United States…

ABRAMS: So wait. Al-Arabiya, which is considered one of the well watched stations in the Arab world is airing a program which is saying, hey, we`re not saying it happened this way, but we`re just going let you decide effectively whether the U.S. was behind an effort to make this happen?

PHARES: Al-Arabiya aired a segment, which basically started on the Web site. This is a system that starts on the Web site and ends up around the Arab world, basically saying that there are reports, to be concerned, of course, by the TV that are on that indeed the United States, Israel and India. They`re a triangle of evil, is responsible because of the nuclear explosions that would have created next to Indonesia the greatest Muslim nation in the world.

ABRAMS: What do they have, like a debate on this Walid?

PHARES: No, that was a report, Dan. A report that they aired and it was multiplied like mushrooms in the entire Arab world. But it didn`t last too long. Once the United States helicopters and Marines were shown on screens in Indonesia around the world, you know, helping kids, then they moved to segment two. That is to deploy themselves, their foreign aid,– relief aid on behalf of the fundamentalists…

ABRAMS: But you`ve also said that some have suggested that the U.S. soldiers who were there some were saying aren`t really there at all actually, right?

PHARES: Basically what some of the Web sites including the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Web site is that, you know, these soldiers are not coming to help you. They first would help you and then they would want to occupy Indonesia in the same way they occupy Iraq. So we want to build our resistance. We want to have Fallujah even here. They use even the term.

ABRAMS: Wow. All right. Mr. Borochoff, how do you…

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

ABRAMS: … how do you prevent money that you want to go to aid, you want it to go to the region, and you want it to go to help people there to just about anyone who is helping there accept these Islamic fundamentalist groups.

DANIEL BOROCHOFF, AMERICAN INSTITUTE OF PHILANTHROPY: It`s really important that the public not get on the Internet. There`s a lot of foreign groups raising money out there and a lot of disguised groups and you don`t want to give to a group you don`t know. You want to give to an American-based group that has relations with grassroots groups over there. Otherwise, it`s really risky and you also get the tax deduction, but it`s too risky right now not to not do that.

I`m also concerned here about the victims being told by the Islamic fundamentalists that they cannot — told not to take contributions from the sinful Americans. We ought to think about the victims, too. So I think this Islamic group has to be watched very carefully so that the American and other international relief workers can get in there and help these people…

ABRAMS: Yes…

BOROCHOFF: … but Americans needs to be very careful…

ABRAMS: You`re saying we actually need to go another step — not just prevent them from getting money, but actually maybe figure out a way to stop them because they may be actually hurting the people who are there by giving them bad information?

BOROCHOFF: These are very vulnerable people and at a time of great suffering, people turn to a stronger form of religion. And there is a risk here that it`s going to be harder for the relief people — relief effort to help these people. There`s also a concern too with dealing with the government. This situation is starting to become politicized. And there`s certain governmental interests where they want to be in good with certain groups over there. So it`s becoming very complicated.

ABRAMS: All right, Walid, what can we do in that effort?

PHARES: First, move with it very well by coming from the air showing the Muslim world, showing Indonesians, especially in Aceh province that we are indeed the only force in the world along with our allies who are able to save many and to get that help to them. The problem is the second stage — we are not on the ground. On the ground you have either the government on the one hand, of course, with all of the problems related to the political dimension of that and the other alternative, unfortunately, is what we see now, Islamic fundamentalist jihadist organizations of relief. Now, we`ve got to figure out with the United Nations possibility of having a cooperation between NGO`s on the one hand and the Indonesian government so it could support that system so that the victims and their families will be able to receive that aid without having to turn to the fundamentalist organization.

ABRAMS: And do you think, Walid, that we`re going to have to go as far as to say — to figure out a way to say, look, you know, I know that they say they`re providing aid, but they`re just providing more problems than they are aid?

PHARES: Yes, but we cannot do it by ourselves.

ABRAMS: Yes.

PHARES: Again, it`s like in any other spot. We need to have Indonesians and South Asians with us. That should be the next stage, government or NGO`s?

ABRAMS: Yes. This is what Colin Powell, the secretary of state said — we don`t actually have that. OK. Walid Phares and Daniel Borochoff, thanks a lot. Appreciate you coming on the program.

BOROCHOFF: Thank you.