The News with Tony Cox

Susan, nice to have you back with us again.

Ms. SUSAN RICE (Brookings Institution): Good to be with with you.

COX: Also, Clifford May, president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and a former New York Times foreign correspondent.

Clifford, nice to have you as well.

Mr. CLIFFORD MAY (Foundation for the Defense of Democracies): Nice to be here. Thank you.

COX: Let’s start here, Cliff. In last Sunday’s edition of The New York Times reporter David Sanger suggested, as others have, that in the midst of two costly efforts to spread democracy to the Middle East, some in the Bush administration see America’s aid response to Indonesia as a potentially powerful and peaceful foothold in an important Muslim nation. This can be tricky, can’t it? Can you buy goodwill in this way?

Mr. MAY: Yeah, I think it can be tricky and, no, I’m not sure you can buy goodwill in this way. Part of my concern early on when people were saying we didn’t respond early enough was the criticism, in a sense, boiled down to the United States not seizing the public relations opportunity in this disaster.

Look, we should do what we do because it’s the right thing to do. If we get credit for it and people like us better, that’s fine but that’s not why we do it. And we shouldn’t expect that. Keep in mind that in the recent past, we have done a great deal in the world to save, in particular, Muslim communities. In Mogadishu in 1993, that was an effort to feed the people of Somalia, and we were attacked by terrorists trained by Osama bin Laden. In Kosovo, we tried to defend the Muslim community. Of course, in Afghanistan we liberated a Muslim community. In Kuwait, we did the same thing. I would argue that in Iraq we are trying very hard to leave a decent society in the place of oppression.

I don’t think we necessarily get much credit. I don’t think that’s why we should do it. But if it happens as a secondary sort of thing, well, that’s lovely.

COX: Well, Susan Rice, how long should the US contribute aid? I mean, is it really helping a long-term commitment?

Ms. RICE: Well, we absolutely need to make it a long-term commitment. Clearly, the emergency response that we hear mounting, particularly with our military assets, is a very important one. To a substantial extent, our helicopters and our tactical airlift is the only game in town to move badly needed supplies to remote areas. And that’s a critical effort, as is our contribution of $350 million which I hope will be increased.

But the critical challenge over the long-term is reconstruction and development. It won’t suffice if we mount this immediate relief operation for a few weeks and then forget about the Indian Ocean base and then look the other way. There’s a huge long-term security problem we face if we are not part of a global effort to help reconstruct this region.

COX: What about, Clifford, those areas, notably Africa, for example, who will likely suffer a loss of financial support during this crisis in South Asia?

Mr. MAY: Well, I think that you make a good point, in general, about where our aid should be directed. I think it’s wonderful and very laudable and important that we do everything that we can to help this particular Indian Ocean basin, but let’s not forget the people who are suffering and who are being killed daily in Darfur in the Sudan. That is an ongoing tragedy and an ongoing catastrophe, and it’s not as a result of an act of nature but an act of a terrible regime in Khartoum. I wouldn’t want to forget about that either.

Relief aid also, Tony, people may not understand is very different from development aid. Relief aid is pretty straightforward. You bring people clean water, shelter, food, you try to prevent diseases. Development aid is a harder thing to do. Government-to-government development aid often is not very effective for a number of reasons. So while we want to help with the reconstruction and we want to do all we can there, let’s not forget other parts of the world at the same time.

COX: Susan, much has been made, militarily speaking, of the fact that the United States has been spread thin, its resources stretched to the limit around the world. How far can the US’ aid in this regard be stretched? Are we thin in that regard also?

Ms. RICE: Well, clearly, our military assets are overstretched, but I think it’s telling that they’re not so overstretched that we can’t respond as we should have in the Indian Ocean. And I think it’s, frankly, fortunate that much of the response has had to come from our naval assets which are less employed in Iraq than some of our ground assets.

Having said that, of course, on the aid side, our resources also are stretched thin, but I think Clifford is absolutely right. This relief effort cannot come at the expense of other pressing humanitarian and development concerns around the world. He mentioned Darfur which is a critically important one, but there are many others, from Haiti to Congo to parts of Latin America. And we need to make sure that we do not rob Peter to pay Paul, that we don’t steal from Darfur, from Congo, from Haiti and Liberia and very sensitive parts of the world and indeed from our efforts to combat the global HIV-AIDS epidemic in order to fund our commitments in the Indian Ocean. We need to be able to do both simultaneously.

COX: Let me bring the conversation to a close with the both of you on this point. With regard to American intervention in Indonesia–I’m speaking now about the government as well as private business–do these two entities–the government and private corporations–run into each other in such an endeavor as this if the US wants to extend democracy but business wants to protect its offshore interests? What do you think, Cliff?

Mr. MAY: Well, I don’t think it’s necessarily in so much conflict. In fact, when you get into trying to foster development, what you find you need beyond money is private property rights, you need a free market, you need a rule of law and you need a contract law. You need a lot of things that business is in favor of, that our government would be in favor of but sometimes is resisted by the various governments that want to maintain control.

If you look around the world, you’ll find that the countries that have received the most aid, the most money per capita in aid–a nation like Tanzania–haven’t developed much. And other places that have received very little aid–Taiwan–have developed. And the reason is because they’ve put in the infrastructure. So it’s not necessarily a conflict. In fact, they can be synergistic.

COX: Do you see it that way, as well, Susan? We’ve got about a minute or so.

Ms. RICE: I think, to a substantial extent, yes. Private capital and, in fact, job-creating investment is a critical part of development in many parts of the world. But I also am perhaps less skeptical than Clifford May about the value of development assistance well targeted. There’s no question that, historically, in some parts of the world it hasn’t been well utilized. It’s gone to dictators, it’s gone to corrupt governments. We know a lot more these days about how to do development assistance properly, and we need to do it both in the Indian Ocean basin as we recover from this crisis and in Africa and other parts of the world where the needs are huge and our security interests are at stake.

COX: Let me sneak one last quick question in with you, about 30 seconds or so. Do you think anything significant will happen as a result of the meeting tomorrow in Jakarta?

Mr. MAY: Well, I hope there’s a meeting of the minds as well and talk about all these issues and about development. Keep in mind, very quickly, the development will be different in different countries. In Thailand, we had a resort industry devastated. Once you recreate those hotels, the economy will be up and running. Sri Lanka, you’ve had a long-running civil war. That hurts development. Indonesia, I think it’s more complicated but very important because of it’s huge, important country with a predominantly Muslim population.

COX: All right. Our time has run out. Susan Rice is former assistant secretary of state for African Affairs during the Clinton administration and is now senior fellow, foreign policy studies at The Brookings Institution. And Clifford May is president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies and former New York Times foreign correspondent. Thanks to both of you.

Mr. MAY: Thank you.

Ms. RICE: Thank you.