CNN Live Saturday

Welcome to both of you.

PHYLLIS BENNIS, INSTITUTE FOR POLICY STUDIES: Thank you.

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Thank you, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right Cliff, let me begin with you. Reportedly, there is no evidence that the White House influenced the CIA. How does this help the president’s credibility problem that he’s had in recent months?

MAY: Well, I think it takes that issue off the table. Now we know what David Kay said, a man of impeccable integrity and sound judgment is correct. One is that — and other people have known this before, we have problems with the intelligence. It is not as good as it needs to be in an age at war with terrorism. So, the question is to find out what went wrong. I think we can — we kind of know how to fix it. And, let me cut to the chase, part of what went wrong is we haven’t had human intelligence and the CIA and other parts of the intelligence community have not had the tools they need to do what they need to do. It’s one thing to have a satellite up there, it’s another thing to have somebody in Saddam’s government who actually knows what’s going on. So, we need the best intelligence agencies in the world and anything we do at this point needs to make that happen as quickly as possible. Let’s not have politics get in the way of, really, a life or death mission, here.

WHITFIELD: And Phyllis, there still remains the issue of David Kay’s remarks that no weapons of mass destruction will be found. Is that your belief?

BENNIS: The bottom line is that we were brought to war based on a lie. George Bush told us that Iraq “had” not programs for the future where someone might be interested in a program or activity of weapons of mass destruction, but stockpiles, Colin Powell told us that there were a hundred tons of chemical and biological weapons that were ready. And the level of fear that was ratcheted up was based on a lie and it does matter…

WHITFIELD: So, who do you blame? Are you blaming the White House or are you blaming Intelligence?

BENNIS: I’m blaming both. I’m blaming intelligence for bad intelligence, but the intelligence reports did have caveats that were cherry picked out by the White House. There’s no doubt that there were intelligence failures. There also are massive political failures and I think we need an outside independent investigation that is going to focus on all of those that are responsible for this. We were lied to…

WHITFIELD: Cliff, why not have an independent investigation?

MAY: Oh, I’m not sure — maybe we should. Congress is investigating and the CIA is investigating. An outside investigation may be good idea, as long as it’s not used to score political points, as long as it’s used to fix the problem. If you had…

WHITFIELD: Well how could that possibly take place during an election year?

BENNIS: You know, Cliff, it’s war…

MAY: It is a difficult thing. But the way you would do it — the way you would do it is you would put somebody like, for example, James Woolsey, former CIA director under President Clinton at the head of such a commission.

BENNIS: James Woolsey was one of…

MAY: Let me also point out…

BENNIS: Let me point out something, if I can say something, Cliff…

MAY: Let me point out one more thing — one more thing in terms of what you said. I hope you agree that, that as you know, as you said David Kay said, this war was necessary because Saddam was a worse threat than we knew because we had weapons, weapons scientists, ingredients, and terrorists all mixing in Iraq, it was only time before they met up with one another.

BENNIS: First of all…

WHITFIELD: All right, Phyllis, let me let you respond.

BENNIS: …we didn’t have terrorists in Iraq, the claims of Iraqi links with al-Qaeda and Iraqi linds…

MAY: They’re not the only terrorists.

BENNIS: Excuse me. Iraqi links with September 11 are false claims that were implied over and over again.

MAY: No.

BENNIS: Enough to the point that up to 70 percent of Americans, at one point, believed that some of the hijackers were themselves Iraqis, which we know not to be the case.

WHITFIELD: But Phyllis — Phyllis, let me ask you, if there are intelligence holes then, where does the investigation begin? Is it with DOD? Is it FBI? There are several levels of intelligence, national security.

BENNIS: I think all have — right. All of them have to be investigated; all of them have to be subject to extremely intrusive investigations, not only into what they knew, but what was written in the reports and then how those reports were used and by whom, what Colin Powell did at the CIA for the two nights that he spent there before the U.N. report. What vice president Cheney was doing at the CIA for the nights that he said that he spent there investigating what they were saying. We need to know…

MAY: All right.

BENNIS: …at every level why

MAY: Unders…

BENNIS: …we were led to war

MAY: Yeah…

BENNIS: …on a lie and the continuing killing

MAY: That’s — that in itself…

BENNIS: …of American troops…

MAY: If I may, Fredricka…

BENNIS: …as well as civilians demands no less.

WHITFIELD: OK, so Cliff.

MAY: That in its — that in itself — to say we were led in as a lie is itself a lie and I have to just say that. Understand that the intelligence has been bad for a long time. In 1991 at the end of the Gulf War, we came in and we found out that our intelligence was wrong, Saddam was a long way towards making a nuclear weapon, we didn’t know it.

BENNIS: No, you know what?

MAY: Don’t forget, in 1993, we didn’t know — we still don’t know to this day, who is behind the…

BENNIS: Well, let’s talk about 1993…

MAY: Let me finish, Phyllis.

WHITFIELD: Well wait a minute, hold on you guys.

MAY: Let me finish, in 1993…

WHITFIELD: Hold on. All right Cliff, hold on…

MAY: There were Iraqi’s involved…

WHITIFELD: Time out. Time out, cliff. All right, real quick. So, you’re saying, obviously, there were intelligence problems well before 9/11. So if that is indeed the case and Phyllis, if that’s something that you agree upon, how in the world would — whether an independent probe or otherwise, try to get to the bottom of the issue? It sounds like everyone would be saying, you know, “I don’t know. He did it.”

BENNIS: No, a lot…

MAY: A no, no, no.

BENNIS: A lot of people knew a lot. In 1995 one of the quotes that we’ve been hearing over and over again is that Hussein Kamal, Saddam Hussein’s son-in-law, who provided…

MAY: OK…

BENNIS: …the information that led to new documents about biological weapons, also told the arms UNSCOM U.N. arms inspectors that he ordered those weapons that they had destroyed in 1991 after the war. They believed…

WHITFIELD: All right…

MAY: OK…

BENNIS: …everything else from Hussein Kamal,

Wait…

BENNIS: except for that.

MAY: You see…

WHITFIELD: All right, Phyllis and Cliff…

MAY: You…

WHITFIELD: I’m going to have to let that be the last word because now we’re out of time. But, I’m sure we’ll be revisiting this conversation again. Thanks very much. Phyllis Bennis and Cliff May.

BENNIS: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Always good to see both of you.

MAY: Thanks.