American Morning

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GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The toppling of Saddam Hussein’s statue in Baghdad will be recorded alongside the fall of the Berlin Wall as one of the great moments in the history of liberty.

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HEMMER: So then, is this second anniversary a true reason to celebrate? Let’s debate that with Democratic consultant Victor Kamber.

Vic, good morning to you.

VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: And former RNC communications director, Cliff May.

Cliff, how are you doing today?

CLIFF MAY, FMR. RNC COMM. DIR.: Doing well.

HEMMER: You’re in the crosshairs first, by the way. Take that quote from the president, one of the greatest moments in the history of liberty. Is that a bit overstated right now? One-hundred and forty thousand American troops still there, and the insurgency is going strong.

MAY: Well, in a certain way, we don’t know, just as in 1989 when the Berlin Wall fell down, we didn’t know what was going to happen next. Now in 1989 when the Berlin Wall fell, it meant that freedom would spread through Eastern Europe. It happened that way.

I think it’s very possible that we’re going to succeed here. Look what’s going on, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, the demonstrations we’ve seen in Lebanon, the changes we’ve seen in Egypt, elections in the Palestinian Authority, kind of elections in Saudi Arabia, we are seeing what I hope will be the beginning of a new wave of freedom, and democracy and human rights in the Middle East.

So, look, I think the pivotal moment was not the statue, but the revolution of purple ink, when eight million Iraqis stood up, they showed their fingers with indelible ink, and said, I’m going to vote, even if the terrorists say now.

One other quick thing, Jalal Talabani was named president of Iraq. He was the member of a persecuted and oppressed minority. Saddam’s policy towards the Kurds was to exterminate them. It was genocidal. Where else in the Middle East do you see a member of a minority becoming the president of a predominantly Arab country? You’ve got to be encouraged.

HEMMER: Victor, he has his list together. How do you counter?

KAMBER: Well, I don’t want to talk about fingers that people would like to point, especially at this president, and which finger it would be over this war.

The bottom line is that we’re two years later, we still have 140,000 troops there, we’re losing lives. Iraq’s president has said that America cannot leave for at least two more years. And then we don’t know how long. It’s billions of dollars. You know, and many Americans, myself included, still don’t know why we went there. There certainly weren’t weapons of mass destruction and Iraq was not a threat to this country. Saddam Hussein is gone. That’s a good thing. Is it worth 15,000 injured, 1,500 dead, and billions and billions of dollars? I don’t know that yet.

HEMMER: As that debate continues, Cliff, you said something last night. You said Iraq is the most prosperous country in the Middle East right now.

MAY: I think it’s the most…

HEMMER: How so?

MAY: I don’t know if I said prosperous. If I did, what I meant to say the most promising country in the Middle East right now. It’s a country where you actually are having — seeing a democratic reform and a movement towards human rights inspiring the rest of the Middle East, and even a lot of people, like Victor, who were not in favor of the war previously are now saying there’s no question the fear has been lifted from these Arab countries.

HEMMER: Are you saying that, Victor?

KAMBER: With 140,000 troop there’s to ensure some form of democracy, that’s not democracy. that’s an occupied country.

MAY: Victor, we still have troops in Germany. We still have troops in Japan. KAMBER: Yes, but not occupation troops.

MAY: These are not occupation troops. They’ve been invited.

KAMBER: Oh, come on!

MAY: At any time, they can say we want you to leave. Right now, what’s happening…

KAMBER: They could say all that, because the country would fall apart, there would be mass murders an executions, and we don’t know — there’s absolutely no stability.

MAY: What we’re seeing right now is the Iraqis increasingly taking responsibility to defend their country from the al Qaeda forces there and from the Baathist whose still want to impose their will on the people.

KAMBER: And the president has said we need the American troops to continue that. We’ve seen demonstrations now for the first time against American troops.

MAY: It’s not the first time.

KAMBER: The first time in recent times since “democracy,” in quotes, since the election.

MAY: No, democracy is when you have free demonstrations and peaceful demonstrations, not when Saddam Hussein mows people down.

We’re going to see a trial coming up very soon of Chemical Ali. He murdered about 100,000 Kurds. That’s what we don’t want to see. What we’re seeing now is a spread of democracy in that region that had been giving us nothing but terrorism and tyranny and that is important, and I just can’t believe you don’t understand…

HEMMER: Topic two, Victor, John Negroponte and John Bolton getting beaten up on the Hill by Democrats. It appears, though, that they will both be confirmed. Are the Democrats taking the right approach in analyzing the histories and the careers of these two men and how they may or may not serve?

KAMBER: Well, I think the whole process of it, advise and consent, is working as well. The Democrats are questioning the role of the appointees of George Bush. They’re looking at the past. They’re looking at who they are, the makeup of the people and making judgments. I think, you know, there’s no question, there’s an element of politics, but I think more than politics, they really are questioning in this time what we need in the U.N. and what we need at the homeland security.

HEMMER: You think they’re just yes-men for the administration, is that right?

KAMBER: Well, I think we’ve seen the president has put in place in a number of offices, most of his cabinet, people that will not be independent voices against him, or even tell him things he doesn’t want to hear. We know that about this president.

HEMMER: When the smoke clears, Cliff, in the end, will they serve well?

MAY: I’m very — yes, I think probably so. John Negroponte is a very experienced diplomat. He’s taking on a very tough job. Our intelligence has been crippled for a very long time. It’s been wrong not just on weapons of mass destruction; it was wrong on fall of the Soviet Union, the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. It was wrong when it told Bill Clinton to bomb a pharmaceutical factory in Sudan and when we bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade. And at the end of the day, intelligence is about people, not just boxes on an organization chart. So I think Negroponte is a good choice.

I also think Bolton is a very good choice. He’s been a critic of the U.N. The U.N. is in crisis. It’s a corrupt institution. Oil- for-food, the biggest financial scandal in history. The sex scandals among the peacekeepers in Congo. I think he’ll go in with a reform agenda, and that’s important if the U.N. is to survive, much less thrive.

HEMMER: We shall all see in time. Thanks, Cliff. Thanks, Vic. Talk to you again a bit later this week, gentlemen. Good to see you — Soledad.