Tavis Smiley

Clifford, nice to have you on.

Mr. CLIFFORD MAY (President, Foundation for the Defense of Democracies): Good to be with you, Smiley.

SMILEY: You’ve heard the main allegations here. What do you make of the story?

Mr. MAY: Not a whole lot, Tavis. Look, in September, it’ll be three years since 9/11. It has got to be seen as a great disappointment that we haven’t been able to get bin Laden in all that time. Part of the reason we know–if you look at President Clinton’s recent book, he talks about trying to get bin Laden, and he was told by the CIA, ‘We just don’t have that kind of paramilitary capability.’ I think it was a mistake that President Clinton didn’t say at the time, ‘Then develop one fast,’ and if he didn’t do that, I think President Bush should have said the same thing to the CIA but didn’t. I don’t think there’s any reason for us to believe–I wish it were true, I wish it were the case, Tavis, that President Bush or the CIA had the ability to pick bin Laden up whenever they want and time it in the most politically efficient way. Unfortunately, I think it’s clear that’s not true.

SMILEY: Well, I think–but, Clifford, respectfully, I think the issue here is not whether or not the Bush administration has the ability to do it. That ain’t the question, forgive me, as I see it. The question is whether or not the Bush administration is, in fact, pressuring the Pakistani government to arrest Mr. bin Laden or top al-Qaeda operatives in time for the election targeted for these dates of the Democratic Convention. That is the issue here.

Mr. MAY: Well, we know two things. One is, they should be pressuring the Pakistanis to get bin Laden as quickly as possible, irrespective of election dates.

SMILEY: Right.

Mr. MAY: And secondly, we know that this story, and I’m a big fan of The New Republic. I read it, I like it, I’ve appeared in it. But this story is based only on sources that are not named. When I worked at The New York Times, you couldn’t write a story like this based on unnamed sources. I also think you have to figure that whoever told the Pakistanis this–I guess it would be somebody in the CIA; I don’t think President Bush is picking up the phone–is pretty stupid. Even if they wanted before the elections to be saying, ‘Hey, you have to understand, while we kind of wanted to get bin Laden a month ago, we really want to get him now because it’s politically useful, and by the way, I’d prefer you not tell any American journalists this,’ that really doesn’t pass the smirk test, does it?

SMILEY: If bin Laden or top al-Qaeda operatives are, in fact, particularly Mr. bin Laden–Let me stick with him–if, in fact, he is found between now and November, you think the American public’s going to buy that they just happened to find him when they found him or that this was, in fact, some politics…

Mr. MAY: Well, that may be the point to this story. I hope not, so that if it happens, instead of saying, ‘Oh, good, we got a high-value target that we’ve been trying to get for three years,’ this story could instead be, ‘Aha, they could have gotten him at any time, but instead they did it just for political purposes in regard to the election.’ Again, do you think that if President Bush could have gotten bin Laden three months ago, he would have said, ‘No, let’s leave him there for a while. Let’s do it closer to the election.’ No matter how much you or others dislike President Bush, is that really credible, Tavis?

SMILEY: Well, first of all, I didn’t say I disliked the president. I’ve never said that on this program, that I dislike the president.

Mr. MAY: I know–listen…

SMILEY: Yeah.

Mr. MAY: Tavis, let’s be clear about this.

SMILEY: Let…

Mr. MAY: The New Republic doesn’t like the president, people on the left don’t like the president.

SMILEY: Right.

Mr. MAY: No matter whatever you think, is it credible to you that if…

SMILEY: Yeah.

Mr. MAY: …the president could have picked bin Laden up three months ago he would have said…

SMILEY: Yeah. Let…

Mr. MAY: …’No, let’s wait on that a little bit. It’ll be politically more useful later’?

SMILEY: All right. Clifford May, I got to run.

Mr. MAY: OK.

SMILEY: I don’t like the president, but I’ve never said that on this program. Clifford May, president of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

Clifford, nice to talk to you.

Mr. MAY: Nice to talk to you, any time, Tavis.

SMILEY: All right, man.

It’s 29 minutes past the hour.