Capital Report

But first, President Bush evoked memories of World War II during a speech about Iraq and the war on terror. Today at the Air Force Academy graduation…

President GEORGE W. BUSH: Like the second world war, our present conflict began with a ruthless surprise attack on the United States. We will not forget that treachery. And we will accept nothing less than victory over the enemy.

If that region is abandoned to dictators and terrorists, it will be a constant source of violence and alarm. Exporting killers of increasing destructive power to attack America and other free nations. If that region grows in democracy and prosperity and hope, the terrorist movement will lose its sponsors, lose its recruits and lose the festering grievances that keep terrorists in business.

We’ve seen the appeal of liberty with our own eyes. We’ve seen freedom firmly established in former enemies like Japan and Germany.

Now freedom is stirring in the Middle East, and no one should bet against it.

MURRAY: So is the Iraq-World War II comparison a stretch? Is the president right about Iraq’s larger role in the war on terror? Joining me now to debate that are Cliff May, president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, a policy institute focusing on terrorism, and Peter Fenn, a Democratic strategist.

Cliff, I’ll start with you. It’s all about liberty in Iraq and ultimately in the rest of the Middle East?

Mr. CLIFFORD MAY (President, Defense of Democracies): Yeah, I think that’s true, and it’s–there’s also this. In World War II, we were fighting aggressive totalitarian movements that sought to destroy the democratic experiment. Right now, we’re fighting terrorism, but that’s really the method of what? Aggressive totalitarian movements that seek to destroy the democratic experiment.

MURRAY: What took us so long to get to this comparison?

Mr. MAY: I’ve been talking about it a long time…

MURRAY: A long time.

Mr. MAY: …actually. I–I think there are those–and I’m glad that–I’m glad the–what the president is doing is taking the time and the trouble now to begin to explain the larger strategic context for the war in Iraq and war on terrorism and make these link that maybe haven’t been so obvious.

Mr. PETER FENN (Democratic Strategist): There he goes again with his links to Iraq. Look, a lot of us were talking when he was proposing $100 billion dollars for Star Wars about terrorism, about the real threat to the country. The real threat to the country–there’s no question–is terrorism. But the way he goes about it–is he strengthening the ports? Is he putting more money into that? No. Is he–is he cutting back on the 100,000 new police in this country? Yes. This is a president who I think should do a lot more on the terrorism front and a lot less worrying about, you know, dictators like Saddam.

Mr. MAY: And you’re talking…

Mr. FENN: That’s the problem.

Mr. MAY: …and you’re talking about defensive measures: protecting ports and police. And I think that’s good. But there’s also on the offense. Look, the Baathists–and Saddam was a Baathist–the Baathists, very–very carefully created their movement, modeled on Nazism. Instead of Aryans, they put in Arabs, and it’s a supremacist movement, and you know that.

Mr. FENN: I understand that.

Mr. MAY: And it’s important Americans understand that.

Mr. FENN: But the problem we have here is we have a president who is taking Iraq as an explanation of ‘Oh, gee, I’m fighting–really fighting terrorism.’ If he were…

Mr. MAY: You don’t agree…

Mr. FENN: No.

Mr. MAY: That’s why I think it’s a stretch.

Mr. FENN: …Iraq is the main front in the war on terrorism?

MURRAY: Well, that’s…

Mr. FENN: No.

MURRAY: Let’s talk about that. No, that’s what gotten very interesting about this. Because what he said in this speech was, maybe it wasn’t the main front against terrorism a–a year and a half ago, but now it is. And his argument was: We haven’t created terrorists. We’ve just gotten them in one place. Do you buy that?

Mr. MAY: I–I not only buy that, but it’s more than that. If you–he mentions specifically Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi. And he’s been talking about him a bit. Zarqawi fought us in Afghanistan, lost a leg there when he fought him in Afghanistan. He then went to Saddam. And Saddam gave him medical treatment, including a prosthesis. He has been there ever since. He killed our ambassador in Lebanon, Lawrence Foley. He slit the head off Nick Berg, and he–if you remember a couple weeks ago, and Zarqawi is the leader of the foreign Jihadists, the foreign terrorists in Iraq.

MURRAY: Yeah.

Mr. MAY: We cannot be defeated by them. And if we don’t fight them there, where do you want to fight them? Here?

Mr. FENN: Listen, we–we should be fighting them in Afghanistan. We don’t have enough action.

Mr. MAY: And Iraq.

Mr. FENN: Oh, we’re losing, folk. Look, let me…

MURRAY: Well, wait, but, Peter, the action…

Mr. FENN: Let me go back answer his question.

MURRAY: Leaving–leaving the history behind for a second, the central front in terror right now is in Iraq, isn’t it?

Mr. FENN: There–there–there is no question that terrorists have gone into Iraq…

MURRAY: Yeah.

Mr. FENN: …since–since this operation.

Mr. MAY: And they were there before.

Mr. FENN: But–but your friends in Saudi Arabia, Cliff, I use that term loosely here. You know, that–we’ve got a problem there, too.

Mr. MAY: We are…

Mr. FENN: We sent–we sent planes out of this country full of Saudis when–when everybody else was grounded. The Bush administration approved that…

Mr. MAY: Actually, Rich–actually Rich…

Mr. FENN: …which is sort of scary.

Mr. MAY: Actually, Richard–point of order. Actually, point of order, Richard Clarke told the Hill newspaper that he was the one who went up to his height and no one else, Richard Clarke, adviser on terrorism to Bush and Clinton…

Mr. FENN: Well.

Mr. MAY: He approved it. Just–just get the history right.

Mr. FENN: The president, the defense department, nobody had anything to do with it.

Mr. MAY: Look, we’ve got–there’s a global…

Mr. FENN: Anyway…

Mr. MAY: The terrorism war is global. It’s taking place in…

Mr. FENN: Exactly.

Mr. MAY: …Saudi Arabia.

MURRAY: OK, guys. Hang on.

Mr. FENN: So why don’t we have the rest of the countries on board? Why do we have people fighting us?

MURRAY: Well, that’s an interesting point.

Mr. FENN: We have blown…

Mr. MAY: We’re not turning anybody away.

Mr. FENN: We’ve blown…

MURRAY: Hold on. I want to ask you about–about precisely that point.

Mr. FENN: Yeah.

MURRAY: If this is like World War II, if it’s a battle of freedom over tyranny, why doesn’t it have the same kind of support we had in World War II? And let me–let me play you something that Bob Dole said on this show on Friday in answer to that very question.

Mr. BOB DOLE: And, besides, people made sacrifices. Who’s making a sacrifice now, except the families of the young men and women who are over in Iraq or Afghanistan or somewhere around the world? I’m not making any sacrifice.

MURRAY: What do you think about that clip?

Mr. MAY: Look, I think we are making sacrifices every time you go to an airport, every time you pay your taxes, every time you kid joins the military. People are making plenty of sacrifices in this country. But in terms of World War II…

MURRAY: Well, what’s the answer to the question?

Mr. MAY: But let me also answer–answer your question, in terms of World War II. If you remember–you’re too young. But if you–the fact of the matter is when we went into World War II, it was us and the Brits. At that point, the Soviets had an alliance with Hitler. At that point, France had appeased Adolf Hitler. And the result was that France had…

Mr. FENN: They were invaded.

Mr. MAY: And they were conquered…

Mr. FENN: Oh.

Mr. MAY: …because they–and they…

Mr. FENN: They were invaded.

Mr. MAY: They were conquered by Hitler because…

Mr. FENN: We had the opportunity…

Mr. MAY: …we didn’t stand up.

Mr. FENN: Let’s just…

Mr. MAY: Throughout the 1930s…

Mr. FENN: Let’s just make this clear.

MURRAY: But aft…

Mr. MAY: Wait a second.

MURRAY: But after–after Pearl Harbor…

Mr. FENN: Absolutely.

MURRAY: …the public support for what we were doing never waned.

Mr. MAY: That’s–that’s absolutely true. And 9/11, as the president says, was like Pearl Harbor…

Mr. FENN: Cliff, two points…

Mr. MAY: …in terms of this war.

Mr. FENN: Two points are very important here. Number one, we have blown the ability after 9/11 that we had–with–we had the weight of the world behind us…

Mr. MAY: No, no…

Mr. FENN: …in support of us. Secondly, there is no sacrifice. You talk about taxes. He’s giving tax cuts.

Mr. MAY: You want to…

Mr. FENN: He’s telling the people…

Mr. MAY: …you want to raise taxes, I understand.

Mr. FENN: …you can have your cake and eat it too.

Mr. MAY: Let me…

Mr. FENN: The American people ought to know that if we do this, we don’t need another billion-dollar cut in Homeland Security which this White House budget, that he just released, suggested.

Mr. MAY: After 9/11, we had a lot of sympathy. We didn’t have support. That it was different. Again, if you want to look at the model, during the 1930s, from ’33 on, Churchill was saying, ‘We have to do something about Hitler.’

Mr. FENN: He was…

Mr. MAY: He was called a war monger.

MURRAY: Here’s the que–here’s the big question though. If this is really a fight of–of freedom against tyranny, why didn’t the president tell us that from day one? Why did it start out with all this elaborate justification about weapons of mass destruction?

Mr. MAY: I think it’s–it’s a matter of the communications effort. Actually, he did talk about other things. He did talk about liberation of Iraq. I think he–look, I think…

MURRAY: There was the AEI speech…

Mr. MAY: There was absolutely the AEI speech.

MURRAY: …which was sort of late–late in the process.

Mr. MAY: Well, going–I–I have–I have notes going back a long way where he said different things. As we all know–look, we know this. We know that Saddam Hussein went down to Salman Pak, the terrorist training camps. And he said to the terrorists, ‘You are to target America.’

Mr. FENN: The one thing…

Mr. MAY: As far as weapons of mass destruction, everybody thought that he was stockpiling them, but he was preparing them throughout his entire career.

Mr. FENN: But, you know–you know as well as I do, we are making this up as we go along.

Mr. MAY: No.

Mr. FENN: Every week–oh, yes, we are. Every week, we get a new idea, a new solution, a new way to get out, a new way to get in. This president is not coherent with his policy. He’s trying to make the…

Mr. MAY: Well, actually, he’s…

Mr. FENN: …public believe he’s coherent. But this is the most incoherent…

Mr. MAY: We are seeing…

Mr. FENN: …operation.

MURRAY: Quick last word.

Mr. MAY: We’re seeing some flexibility. Right now, John Kerry and President Bush are pretty close in terms of Iraq and the war on terrorism. And I give points to John Kerry for that. He’s taking a responsible position unlike Al Gore, unlike Ted Kennedy.

Mr. FENN: And like…

Mr. MAY: I won’t talk about you.

MURRAY: Unlike Peter Fenn. We’re going to leave it at that. Peter Fenn, Cliff May, thank you for being here…

Mr. MAY: Sure.

MURRAY: …to review the president’s very interesting speech today.

And coming up next on CAPITAL REPORT, the nation’s obesity crisis brings together some of the country’s top docs. We’ll talk to the US surgeon general, Richard Carmona, about how he’s fighting America’s weight problem, next.

Then later, young word wizards take to the stage for this year’s National Spelling Bee. We’ll check out the competition, see how Eamon does with those words when CAPITAL REPORT continues on CNBC.