Buchanan & Press

BUCHANAN: All right. Tim Wirth, let me ask you about the United Nations. Clearly in the Security Council we have been beaten in a number of cases. In the General Assembly, it’s a hot bed of anti-Americanism. We have a friend, Israel, which has been voted against, voted down, denounced, ridiculed by the United Nations. I know it makes mistakes, but have they ever done anything positive about Israel? And if not, shouldn’t we get out of those kinds of organizations?

TIMOTHY WIRTH, UNITED NATIONS FOUNDATION PRES.: Well, first and foremost, you know the idea of us going into Iraq and the United States for the purposes of making the Middle East stable and for helping Israel I think, Pat, was not a policy that most people would think made a lot of sense. You know, if we’re going to stabilize the Middle East in which the U.S. has a major role…

BUCHANAN: I’m asking you, Tim…

WIRTH: … the U.N. can contribute to this…

BUCHANAN: I’m asking you if the U.N…

WIRTH: … you know then I think we ought to pursue that agenda.

BUCHANAN: I’m asking if the U.N. is inherently and militantly anti-Israel because the United States has cast countless vetoes in the U.N. simply to defend Israel.

WIRTH: Well I think that the U.N. has tried to be in a very balanced way. There is, as you know as well as I do, there are a great number of these resolutions that get raised on the floor of the U.N. and the General Assembly that are meaningless just like a whole lot of resolutions that get raised in the House and the Senate. You know the sense of the Senate or the sense of the House that are — things that are done for political purposes. I think increasingly the U.S. has done a good job of bringing Israel in. Israel is now a member of one of the major regional groups, which is important. And I think we have just got to keep working on that. Iraq does not help, by the way.

PRESS: Cliff May, let me bring you into this. First, this is a test, Cliff May. I want to see if you are as far out as Pat Buchanan is. Do you really believe that the United States would be wise to just pull out of the United Nations?

CLIFF MAY, FDN FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: I think the U.N. needs serious, serious, serious reform. The United Nations right now…

PRESS: Well, is that a yes or a no?

MAY: I’m not saying we should pull out at the United Nations this moment, no. There are all kinds of reasons, but not because the U.N. is a world government or should be and not because the U.N. is a world government or should be and not because the U.N. is a particularly good institution. It is not. It is a corrupt organization. It is an inefficient organization. It is an organization made up of dictatorships and democracies and institutionally it doesn’t have a preference of one over the other. It’s really amazing that the U.N. is now pulling out of Iraq, by the way, because they say they can’t defend themselves. Then people are saying why don’t we give all the military responsibilities in Iraq to the U.N. That is the most — let’s agree that’s a ridiculous idea. No one is going to raise it again on this show, right?

PRESS: But isn’t the strength…

MAY: Right?

PRESS: … isn’t the strength of the U.N. that it’s a place where democracies and dictatorships can come together in common cause.

MAY: As equals and common cause? The causes of democracies and the causes of dictatorships are not the same causes.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: You and I should understand that.

PRESS: I would totally…

MAY: This is an organization…

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: … this is an organization in which Syria, ruled by a family, has the same amount of clout as India where 100 — where a billion people get to vote. We have got to understand this should not be a world government…

BUCHANAN: All right, let me ask you…

MAY: … the Supreme Court or anything similar.

(CROSSTALK)

BUCHANAN: Tim Wirth, let me follow up…

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: Let Tim respond briefly.

WIRTH: I would say nobody is saying the U.N. is going to move in security. That is…

MAY: OK.

WIRTH: … the U.S.’s responsibility…

MAY: Good. I’m glad we agree…

WIRTH: … we have got chaos and I think the U.N. absolutely agrees with that as well.

MAY: And…

WIRTH: The chaos that exists in Iraq, you know, is the unhappy result of the fact that there isn’t security. The U.N. has never been attacked like this before. It’s a dreadful situation…

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: It’s a dreadful situation which we…

WIRTH: … reflection of the really bad…

MAY: … a dreadful…

WIRTH: … bad…

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: You know what? The U.N…

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: … let me point this out. The U.N. said it’s not safe there now. Under Saddam it was perfectly safe to be a U.N. employee in Baghdad…

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: … but it wasn’t safe for an Iraqi. The U.N. had no concern…

WIRTH: Cliff, Cliff…

MAY: … for the Iraqis who were murdered…

WIRTH: … come on, come on…

(CROSSTALK)

WIRTH: The U.N. has been respected everywhere around the world. It’s been safe to be a U.N. employee every place…

MAY: The U.N. has…

WIRTH: … in the world or a Red Cross employee or…

MAY: Tim…

WIRTH: … a major Doctors…

MAY: Tim…

WIRTH: … Without Borders employee…

MAY: Tim…

WIRTH: … until this chaotic…

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: I’m going to interrupt…

(CROSSTALK)

WIRTH: You’re confusing the security situation, Cliff.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: … which we’ve got to fix, right?

(CROSSTALK)

PRESS: … my partner back in here.

WIRTH: We do.

MAY: We do.

PRESS: Pat has a question. Go ahead Pat.

BUCHANAN: Tim Wirth, look, the United Nations, the Security Council reflects basically a balanced power that you had at the end of World War II.

WIRTH: That’s right.

BUCHANAN: Why in heaven’s name should France now — however, this country, which is not a global country, not a global economic power, military power, anything — why should they have a veto in the Security Council? And isn’t Cliff right, it’s time to reform this organization and move countries like France out of their position where they can really thwart the entire foreign policy of the United States?

WIRTH: Look, I think people are working on reform as you know. The U.S. has been pushing that. They did it before. They continue to work on it, try to expand and change the nature of the Security Council. It’s been a proposal that’s been there for a long time. Nothing in the U.N. happens without the leadership of the member states, particularly the U.S., Russia and the E.U. and until they decide that they want to make this kind of change which the secretary-general is now pushing on very hard, we’re not going to get that sort of change.

PRESS: Cliff…

WIRTH: We need the change. You and I would agree on that.

PRESS: Cliff, a real quick, specific question. There was a proposal this week from John Negroponte to close the Washington, D.C. office of the United Nations. That’s a main contact with Congress. Isn’t that just bonehead stupid?

MAY: You know what? They’d have to look — John Negroponte is one of the best diplomats we have in this country. He is tremendously experienced. You and I would have to look at why he said to do that.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: He wouldn’t say it for a bonehead reason.

WIRTH: I just sent Negroponte a letter.

MAY: Yes.

WIRTH: I said hey John, you know, this is an idea that sounds good if you say it fast enough. Why don’t you close the U.N. Missions Office at the State Department? You’d save a lot more money. I mean…

(CROSSTALK)

WIRTH: … it’s a really silly idea…

PRESS: Tim Wirth, Cliff May, good to see you both. Thank you for joining us.

MAY: Thank you.

WIRTH: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

PRESS: All right. And we’ll do it again.

Just ahead, the government now says it’s safe to consume milk and meat from cloned animals. So do you believe them? Would you feed it to your kids? That debate next, BUCHANAN & PRESS.