American Morning

Good morning to you, guys. Nice to see you, as always.

CLIFF MAY, FMR. RNC COMM. DIR.: Good morning.

VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Good morning.

O’BRIEN: Vic, let’s begin with you. This has been called over and over by many people a resounding success. Do you agree with that?

KAMBER: Well, I think George Bush called it a resounding success about three months ago once he announced it was going to happen. It was going to be a success no matter what. The bar was low, because he just wanted to have an election.

Having said that, no, it is a success in the sense people turned out, people voted. It looks like big numbers. In the Sunni area, it was not as great as we’d hoped.

But having said that, martial law existed, heavy military containment in the country.

O’BRIEN: People were dancing and singing in the streets, right?

KAMBER: And 46 died in those same streets with this election. So was it a success that we had an election, yes? Does it change anything in Iraq today? I’m not sure.

O’BRIEN: Cliff, how about a resounding political success for the White House?

MAY: Well, yes. I mean, look, first of all, it is a resounding success for the people of Iraq. I want you to see that I’ve got my finger inked in solidarity with the freedom fighters and revolutionaries.

O’BRIEN: I was going to say you’re not Iraqi, you’re not an exile. What are you doing with that?

MAY: I’m in solidarity with them.

O’BRIEN: Gotcha.

MAY: We’ve not seen an election like this ever in the Arab Middle East. And the people of the Middle East, in the broader Muslim world, they haven’t seen elections like this very much. So it is a startling thing to see, and it changes the equation.

Now, the work is not entirely over, by any means. There’s still so much more to do. We still have terrorists there, led by Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, the al Qaeda leader in Iraq. He needs to be defeated. We still have the party of return. That’s the old Baathist ruling class. They want to come back. All they are doing, and all they can do and all they have to offer is random killings of innocent people. That’s what they’re doing there, and they need to be defeated by us and by the Iraqis, hopefully working together. But it’s a huge milestone.

KAMBER: No, as Cliff says, the work’s not over. I’m suggesting the work hasn’t changed. An election brought about an election. We had an election. There will be winners. There’ll be losers. The bottom line is no one assumes that the American government is going to turn over power, or can turn over power to that government that’s elected. We have no fewer terrorists today than we had yesterday.

O’BRIEN: But they’re on their way to drafting a constitution. I mean, many people, even people who did not support the war in Iraq are saying these are the baby steps toward democracy.

KAMBER: Totally agree.

O’BRIEN: What’s your definition then of success? Is it American troops out? Is it when it they have a constitution, which they haven’t had?

KAMBER: I don’t think it’s any question it’s when it’s a stable country and we’re not losing lives anymore. And if we have to have peacekeeping forces, they’re not U.S. peacekeeping forces, but world peacekeeping forces. You can’t call it success when we occupy a country.

O’BRIEN: Cliff, agree with that definition. I mean, to some degree, a lot of Americans really just care about when Americans come home.

MAY: What we’re talking about — well, unfortunately, we are in a war against terrorists and against Islamic fascism around the world. The frontline, obviously, is in Iraq. That’s where the most deadly of the al Qaeda leaders, has been living, and that’s where he’s sending out his suicide bombers, and we still haven’t entirely beaten all of the Saddam Hussein loyalists, because when we went in after them, we let a lot of them get away and they have reorganized. We’re going to be fighting this war. Victor has to get this through his head. We are going to be fighting a way against Islamic fascism and terrorism for a very long time. I hope it will be over in our lifetime, but you want to avoid the war, Victor. We can’t.

(CROSSTALK)

KAMBER: No, Cliff, I understand it. I understand it. I don’t believe George Bush understood it. George Bush, on two or three occasions, has claimed it’s over, mission accomplished. I wish he’d level with the American people and say this is a three, four, five year, $300 billion, $400 billion, $500 billion effort.

MAY: I’m telling you, it’s longer than that. This is a generational war. It’s what Jim Woolsey, who was just on this show, and Elliot Cohen (ph) has called “World War IV.” World War III having been the Cold War, and there are too many other people like yourself and like Senator Kennedy, who don’t seem to understand what is taking place in the world. These people…

O’BRIEN: If democracy, Cliff, is achieved, if the constitution is drafted, in your mind then, that was worth the cost? That was worth the whatever the number ends up being of American lives, and the number of Iraqi lives that have been lost? And I guess that’s my question.

MAY: It will be the beginning of a transformation of the Middle East, an area from which terrible terrorism as has emerged and has gone out with its goal, its stated goal, of destroying democracy and destroying the Western world. Unless we clean the swamps, unless we drain them, we will never get rid of the alligators and the mosquitoes. That’s what we’re doing here. And Iraq is serving as the first model of a transformation. This area of the world cannot be left behind forever in poverty and oppression and have us think it won’t affect us. Our oceans do not protect us as they did. We learned that on 9/11.

O’BRIEN: We’ve got a lot more to talk about. We’re out of time. But you know, you talk about a first model. So I wonder if that means you see this happening over and over and over again.

KAMBER: God forbid.

O’BRIEN: What that would mean to U.S. troops as well, but that’s something we’re going to talk about the next time we meet up.

You guys, as always, thanks a lot — Bill.