Crossfire

Eighteen Americans dead, dozens more wounded in a single attack in Iraq yesterday. When it come to the cost of rebuilding Iraq, how high is too high? That’s our debate today.

Joining us are Representative Jim Moran, a Democrat from Northern Virginia, and also Cliff May, the president of the Foundation For the Defense of Democracies.

Welcome.

(APPLAUSE)

BEGALA: Gentlemen, good to see you both. Thanks for joining us.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Cliff, this is tragic news obviously out of Mosul yesterday. And to learn today that — from General Myers in his press conference, it was the work of a suicide bomber, someone just walking into that base, walking into that mess hall with 400 men and women in there.

The secretary of defense made an observation today he’s made in the past, that this is asymmetrical warfare. He said the bombers, the bad guys, the terrorists only have to be right once. We have to be right all the time. Inarguably incorrect. Doesn’t that suggest that we need a new and different strategy, that whatever it is we’re doing now leaves our troops vulnerable and we need a new strategy in Iraq?

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Oh, I think you’re right.

We do. We need a new strategy in terms of the entire military, because we have a military exquisitely constructed to fight the Soviet Union. We do not have a military constructed to fight terrorists and insurgents and suicide bombers. I don’t care how many high-tech precision bombs you have. I don’t care how many armored Humvees you have. A suicide bomber with a knapsack full of explosives can kill you if you’re not equipped to deal with it.

Now, that’s because, throughout the 1990s and before, we didn’t construct our army to fight what is called small-war insurgencies. Donald Rumsfeld said this week, we need a transformation of our military to fight the wars of the 21st century. The wars of the 21st century, that’s what we’re seeing on our TV screens right now.

BEGALA: OK. But he also said that we could not put any more armor on any more Humvees because we were at maximum capacity. At least three firms the day he said that to our soldiers said he was not telling the truth. He was misinformed, at best. And, in fact, we could do a lot more armor, which I gather we would need to protect from these kinds of explosives, right?

MAY: Understand the theory here. You used to want armor on those vehicles that were on the front lines. The ones that were behind the front lines in the rear, you wanted to go fast and you want them to be light.

Now we’re fighting a kind of war where there are no front line.

BEGALA: Right.

MAY: There is no rear. We have to make a transformation.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: And we have to make a transformation of our military to fight exactly the kind of war we’re fighting in Iraq. If we lose this war, we won’t lose it just in Iraq. We will lose it on one front after another.

CARLSON: Now, Congressman, Congressman Moran, it wasn’t simply American soldiers who were killed yesterday in Iraq. It was also employees of the company Halliburton. At least four were killed. A lot of them were injured. And this is not — this is part of a larger trend. Almost 60 Halliburton employees have been killed in this war so far, and doubtless many more will.

Does that give you pause at all in light of the endless Democratic attacks on Halliburton, blaming Halliburton for the war, claiming Cheney took us to war because of Halliburton, dehumanizing the employees of Halliburton? In light of their deaths, don’t you think that was sort of an unattractive, at best, strategy?

REP. JIM MORAN (D), VIRGINIA: Tucker, I really like you and admire you, but you are trying to I think trivialize what is a very important issue. It’s not about Halliburton. It’s not about the role contractors are playing. As I was walking in here, I…

CARLSON: I’m trivializing them? I spent a year and a half on this set listening to people attack Halliburton as the cause of going to war.

(CROSSTALK)

MORAN: Well, they were trivializing it.

CARLSON: You…

(CROSSTALK)

MORAN: This is not about Halliburton.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: .. cause of going to war?

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: You used…

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: … day after day.

BEGALA: Never once, Tucker, never once did I suggest we went to war for Halliburton.

CARLSON: You wasted precious time on this show attacking Halliburton.

BEGALA: I said Halliburton is ripping us off. And they are.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Do they have brave people who are being killed? Yes, they do. But I never said they were the cause of this war.

MORAN: As I was walking in to do this show, I got called by a friend who has 7,000 contract employees in Iraq doing much the same thing that Halliburton is doing, providing security, trying to build infrastructure.

He’s lost 26 in the last month. He’s got nine people that are being held hostages. He’s been told that he’s going to receive nine heads. All of them will be beheaded if he doesn’t withdraw all his troops — all of his contract people. He can’t, because they are providing security for American personnel and American bases.

This is — it’s not just Halliburton. It’s not just our contractors. It’s the situation that we’re in. That’s what we have to be talking about, not whether Halliburton is ripping off the government or whether they should be in at all. The real issue is whether we should be there.

And I take issue with Cliff. You know, I voted against this war because, in the first place, it was unwinnable. In the second place, we never had an exit strategy. And, in the third place, the reasons that were purported to — that we had to go to war were not truthful.

(CROSSTALK)

MORAN: And that’s why we’re in the mess that we’re in.

(APPLAUSE)

MAY: Let me address that, if I may.

Very important to recognize that the people who claimed responsibility for what happened yesterday, the suicide bomb, as we now think it was, that was Ansar Al-Sunna. Ansar Al-Sunna is a group, there’s no question about it, that is linked to al Qaeda. If we are going to be defeated by al Qaeda in Iraq, if we’re not going to fight al Qaeda in Iraq, where will we fight them?

Keep in mind that, in 1998, Osama bin Laden looked at…

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: Let me finish.

MORAN: Al Qaeda wasn’t in Iraq.

MAY: Ansar Al…

(CROSSTALK)

MORAN: Yes, but they weren’t part of al Qaeda. They weren’t under bin Laden.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: You’re wrong. Ansar Al-Sunna was called Ansar Al-Islam. It was based in Iraq under Saddam Hussein and Zarqawi.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: In what part of Iraq?

MAY: Next to the Kurdish autonomous area.

BEGALA: The part of Iraq…

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: They were not protected by the Kurds. That’s wrong. It was.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: Because Zarqawi — because Zarqawi went back and forth from Baghdad to the camp freely.

MAY: Let me just say this. If we can’t — can I just say — make this one point?

BEGALA: Let me ask you — no, let me ask you a question that is in the news today. I don’t want to go back to 1998. I don’t want to go back to before the war. I want to ask about today.

Today, there is news that one of the major contractors there, Contract International, is pulling out. The big difference between a contractor and a soldier is, of course, contractors can leave. And they’re voting with their feet. And what does that tell you, when a major American contractor is pulling out?

MAY: It shows that the weapon being used against us, terrorism meant to destroy our will to fight, can work. Don’t forget, we ran out of Somalia in 1993.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Are they bad corporate citizens? Are they bad Americans for pulling out their personnel?

MAY: I’m not accusing them of that.

I’m saying that, if we do what we did in Somalia, if we do what we did in Beirut, which is cut and run, they will follow us. You don’t want to go back. The fact of the matter is, Osama bin Laden looked at what we did in Somalia, looked at what we did in Beirut, and he said, these people will run because they cannot fight a long, prolonged war.

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: And it escalated.

BEGALA: Ronald Reagan pulled us out of Beirut…

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: Now I’ve heard it all.

MAY: Absolutely right. Absolutely right. Absolutely right.

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: Congressman Moran, I…

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: … agree with some of the things you have said, as you know. I don’t think your position is crazy at all on Iraq.

However, the position of a lot of Democrats on the Hill doesn’t seem to square with your position and, indeed, with their own positions. This notion that the war is a bad idea and yet, as Senator Corzine said very recently, we need to add more troops, does that make sense to you? It’s a disaster, but we need more troops?

MORAN: Tucker, it’s too late to add more troops. We should have in the beginning. It would have been a different level — it would have been a more level playing field. You’re supposed to have one troop for every 50 countrymen, if you will, if you’re going to control the country.

We didn’t think we were going in as occupiers. But, if we had gone in as occupiers, we would have needed almost 500,000 troops. But we didn’t do it. It’s too late. The reason why these insurgents are so well organized, so destructive, is because the people that are giving them the support are the Iraqi police, military, and their security forces that ran the country, so they know how to do it. And that’s why they can get to the…

(CROSSTALK)

CARLSON: What’s the solution? What should we do now? If we shouldn’t add more troops and the Iraqi police are working against us, tell us, what should we do?

MORAN: All right.

I think what we need to do, actually, is to look back at some history and understand that there are three separate parts of Iraq, three different provinces there. There was Mosul. There was Baghdad. And there was Basra. And all of the three had different leaders. The reason why Iraq was formed, it was formed by the British because they wanted to spell the Ottoman Empire, but those three force, they are never going to be able to work together.

And the Shia have no education, no experience…

CARLSON: Three countries, that’s what you’re saying?

MORAN: There are basically three provinces under a loose federation. But the Shia can’t run this country. Even if they have 60 percent of the vote, they don’t have the education. They don’t have the experience. We have got to look at the people who used to run the country. We should have gone in, get rid of Saddam, get rid of his henchman, and let the military police run the country, as they were.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: First, do we need more troops? And, second, will we look at a federated Iraq? Will we look at a divided Iraq turned into three nations?

MAY: First of all, I’m not sure we need more troops. We certainly need a different kind of troops. Keep in mind, in the 1990s, we went from 18 divisions to 10.

Congressman, you were part of this. We — our Army was cut. Our military was cut almost in half. We took the peace dividend. But, more importantly, we need a different kind of troops. We don’t need troops simply assembling in tents where they’re targets. We need special forces. We need Marines. This takes years to develop. And, unfortunately, we didn’t have the vision to see it.

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: We started the war on our timetable. The president started the war on his timetable.

MORAN: And why did we decide we had to do it on our own?

(CROSSTALK)

BEGALA: If we weren’t ready for that war, why did Mr. Bush start it?

MAY: I agree with you that we developed a military that was not prepared for the kinds of wars we’re going to have to fight in the 21st century.

CARLSON: All right, we’re going to take a quick commercial break.

MATTHEWS: Now we have to…

CARLSON: Next, in “Rapid Fire,” how do Americans think President Bush is handling the war on terror? We have the numbers and we’ll give them to you when we come back.

And, if you’re getting ready to travel this holiday season, indeed, this Christmas season, find out what extra obstacles you may be facing in this age of increased security. Wolf Blitzer will have the latest.

We’ll be right back.

Here at CROSSFIRE, we are debating yesterday’s tragic attack on the U.S. base in Mosul. Americans are being asked whether or not it is worth it.

In the CROSSFIRE, joining us, Cliff May. He is the president of the Foundation For the Defense of Democracies. And Congressman Jim Moran, he’s a Democrat in the House of Representatives from Virginia.

CARLSON: Congressman Moran, by 10 points, Americans say President Bush is doing a good job handling the war on terror. Why do they think that?

MORAN: Because I think that the Democratic Party or the opposition are relatively ineffectual at getting out their message. And I think that most people are — want to trust in their government, want to trust in their president.

I’m not particularly surprised, but it doesn’t mean it’s true. You know, who was it? Plato, I think, said that the minority are oftentimes wrong. The majority always are. And it’s something to bear in mind.

CARLSON: Now you’re pulling on Plato. That’s great.

(LAUGHTER)

BEGALA: Let me ask you about what the majority of Americans also say. And this is the ABC News/”Washington Post” poll; 56 percent of Americans, a solid majority, think that the war was not worth fighting. And 70 percent now are saying the casualties are unacceptable. Are we losing the hearts and minds of the American people?

MAY: Well, I hope not. Look, when Zarqawi and others slice heads off and make videotapes and send them around, when they do suicide bombings, what are they trying to do? They’re not trying to take that camp and hold it. They’re not trying to take cities. They’re trying to destroy our will to fight, because if you don’t have a will to fight, by definition, you are defeated.

This is how terrorism operates. It destroys the will to fight. If we lose — see, I think a lot of people think that this will be like Vietnam. We’ll retreat. We’ll surrender. We’ll have lost that battle, but we can still go on to win the war. I’m going to argue with you and say that, if we lose in Iraq, we will lose in a series of battles in this war we are fighting against terrorism and international jihadism.

MORAN: If we lose in Iraq, it will be at least partly our fault.

MAY: It will be totally our fault.

MORAN: If we’re trying to win the hearts and the minds, you don’t achieve that objective with a policy that brought about Abu Ghraib and the kinds of torture and abuse of Iraqi people.

We have to stand as an example. Everything we do is going to be scrutinized. We need to show them this is the way a civilized country runs its business and this is the objective we want to achieve in Iraq. And we’re not able to do that.

(BELL RINGING)

MORAN: Whether our P.R. effort is not adequate or our principles are not intact. But I think that we’re blowing this. And I don’t think it’s winnable at this point, Cliff.

CARLSON: All right, well, we are, on that sad note, completely out of time.

Cliff May, thank you very much. Congressman Jim Moran, thank you.