Debra Norville Tonight

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP – “UNCOVERED”)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Iraqi denials of supporting terrorism take their place alongside the other Iraqi denials of weapons of mass destruction. It is all a web of lies.

BOB BAER, FORMER CIA FIELD OFFICER: It was a masterful performance, but none of it was true. Where are all these weapons? Where is all this VX? Where is all the anthrax?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE: Joining me now is Robert Greenwald, the man who produced and directed “Uncovered,” along with two people interviewed in the film, one of whom you just saw a moment ago, Bob Baer, a former field officer for CIA, and former CIA analyst Ray McGovern. Gentlemen, thanks all for being with us.

Mr. Greenwald, you first. Why did you make this movie?

ROBERT GREENWALD, PRODUCER/DIRECTOR “UNCOVERED”: Well, I wanted to get this story out. There are these incredible people, who I consider the real patriots. Between the 23 people I’ve interviewed, they worked over 400 years of service for the U.S. government. I mean, to me, that’s patriotism. And…

NORVILLE: But why this movie? There have been so many movies that are critical of the administration.

GREENWALD: This, by the way, is not critical of the administration. What this is very critical of — and it’s Republicans, independents and Democrats. It’s critical of the reasons we were given for going to war. It’s very specific, it’s very precise. It doesn’t say who you should vote for. But it says, Here’s what we were told, in the words of the administration, and then here are experts who know reality, telling us, No, that was not true.

NORVILLE: In sort of the liner notes to this film, you say there was a specific moment when it occurred to you, you needed to personally look deeper into all of this. What was it?

GREENWALD: It was a moment when I was reading the newspaper, and it was early one morning because I’m up at dawn, reading the newspapers. And there was a story. In the middle of the story, it talked about programs for weapons of mass destruction. And I got this knot in my stomach. I said, Wait a minute. We didn’t go for programs. A program’s a piece of paper. And I remembered all those very serious warnings we were given. And that’s when I started on this journey to make the film. And then the next day, I heard about these CIA guys who were saying, Whatever our politics are, we weren’t given the real reason. And the information was distorted and misused. And that is against everything we believe in.

NORVILLE: And one of those CIA guys was you, Ray McGovern, who has over 27 years of service with the Central Intelligence Administration. When your phone rang and Mr. Greenwald was on the other end of it, what was your response?

RAY MCGOVERN, FORMER CIA ANALYST: Well, I was amazed because until then, it was only the BBC or the ABC from Australia or some foreign broadcast service or documentary service that was interested in hearing what we had to say. And so I was delighted that someone else was interested, and an American.

NORVILLE: And what is it you were saying?

MCGOVERN: We were saying that there was no substance to the charges of weapons of mass destruction. We were saying this well before the war. You see, when you are an intelligence analyst, you can get a good feel for if it’s solid and when it isn’t. And we saw Colin Powell, for example, going before the U.N. Security Council with his very dubious intelligence, we thought that this was really a difference in magnitude. That the first time in our careers, the U.S. was about to launch an unprovoked war on the basis of no evidence at all.

NORVILLE: What specifically about Colin Powell’s remarks to the U.N. in February struck you as dubious?

MCGOVERN: Well, there are a host of things. These trailers, these biotrailers, they showed sketches of them as though we had photography or something about them. We know now that all of that was based on one defector, one refugee, who was known to be a lush and who was known not to have the access that he craved who was referred to us by James Woolsey, previous director of central intelligence and came through that Chalabi chain.

NORVILLE: Right. The Iraqi National Congress.

MCGOVERN: And we also know that the CIA knew that before Colin Powell gave that speech and that the supervisor in charge of this information warned his subordinates the night before, look, there’s going to be a war no matter what. The powers at be almost certainly don’t care whether this source knows what he’s talking about or not.

NORVILLE: You are one person with the CIA. Bob Baer, you are another, a CIA field officer in your earlier life. You had the same concerns. And your phone rang and Mr. Greenwald was on the other end and he said what to you?

BOB BAER, FRM. CIA AGENT: He said, do you want to do a film on Iraq and the intelligence, specifically the intelligence. This was not a political film as he described it. He said, is this bad intelligence? And I said, it is bad intelligence.

I was a manager in an Iraqi collection program through the 1990’s. I know where they were getting this information. They were getting it from the exiles. And I’m calling it trash and I still call it trash. And they were putting this in finished intelligence reports to justify a war.

It just struck me as wrong, because I, over the years watched good intelligence come across my desk and bad intelligence. It’s clear when it’s bad, and this was bad from the beginning.

NORVILLE: The question is, was it cooked? Was it bad just because they were listening to people who really weren’t in the know, or was it bad because it was being massaged once it got to Washington?

BAER: It was definitely cooked. Now, the question is was it cooked in the National Security Council as David Kay is alleging, or was it cooked inside the CIA to please the White House? I can’t tell you. I wasn’t in the inner circles, but it was definitely cooked.

This stuff shouldn’t have made it into the National Intelligence Estimate in October 2002.

NORVILLE: And yet it did.

And Mr. Mcgovern, what I don’t understand is why, we’ve have the most competitive news organizations in the country, why were you and Mr. Baer or some of the others who made it into this film standing on the street corner screaming, you got to listen to what I’ve got to say. Surely someone of the networks would have put you on.

MCGOVERN: We put out memoranda. We, Professional Intelligence for Sanity — Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, VIPS, 3 memos before the war. One was called “Cooking Intelligence For War.” The second was called “Forgery: Hyperbole, Half Truth, A problem Mr. President?”

We warned as well as we could. None of the mainstream press picked up our warnings. We were virtually out on all the street corners.

An important distinction here needs to be made. The administration was not led into war by faulty intelligence. The intelligence was, to be sure, very bad. It was cooked, but it was cooked post-facto. Decision for war preceded the intelligence by at least six months.

NORVILLE: This is a huge claim. Who was the chef if the intelligence was being cooked?

MCGOVERN: Well, the chef was George Tenet, the head of the the CIA, who was happy to pander to the likes of his president. He was given marching orders when it became necessary to persuade Congress to approve this war.

See, Congress has the sole prerogative to do a war. And Congress needed to be persuaded. And so George Tenet was given that task. And from that point of view, it was great intelligence, because it succeeded in its primary purpose, that is, to deceive our elected representatives to see their prerogative tool for war to the president.

NORVILLE: Needless to say Mr. Greenwald, these are explosive claims that are being brought up in the movie, and we want to be able to hear from an other side, specifically from one member of Congress who had to listen to the intelligence as it was presented.

We’ll take a short break. When we come back, Robert Greenwald, Bob Baer and Ray McGovern will stick around. And we’ll also be joined by Congressman Ray LaHood, who is on the House Intelligence Committee, and Cliff May from the Foundation for the Defense of Democracy. They’ll join our discussions. Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: …Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: A clear threat to the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Dozens of ballistic missiles.

BUSH: …biological and chemical agent to kill millions of people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were all wrong. And that is most disturbing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE: That is a clip from a new documentary that opens tomorrow. It’s called, “Uncovered: The War On Iraq.” Back with me is the movie’s producer and director, Robert Greenwald. Also, 2 folks featured in the film, former CIA field officer Bob Baer and former CIA analyst Ray McGovern. And we’re joined now by Cliff May. He’s the president of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. And also with us tonight is Republican Congressman Ray LaHood from Illinois. He’s a member of the House Select Committee on Intelligence. He’s also the chair of the Subcommittee on Terrorism and Homeland Security.

I thank both of you for being with us as well. And congress, I have to tell you, we called the White House, we tried to get somebody from the administration to be with us. We spoke with the offices of every single member of the Senate Intelligence Committee and every member of the House Intelligence Committee, you were the only one brave enough, I guess, to come in and have this conversation with us. Why this apparent reluctance?

REP. RAY LAHOOD (R) ILLINOIS: Well, I can’t account for why people don’t want to appear on the program. I can say this, Deborah, that I think this so-called documentary, which I question that term to describe it, is part of a pattern by moveon.com, by the Democratic Party and by people in this country, including a big segment of the Hollywood crowd who want to trash the president, and trash his policy in Iraq for no other reason than to get John Kerry elected president.

The thing that wasn’t disclosed in the piece here and in the interview, is that a part of this was paid for by moveon.com (sic), which is an organization whose sole is to elect John Kerry to the presidency of the United States and to trash President Bush.

NORVILLE: Well, you are right about the financing of that, and we’ll get into that. But I want to get to the message of the movie, which is the question of intelligence. As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, all of this data was presented in a much more complicated and detailed form to you and your fellow committeemen than it might have been to other members of Congress. You were clearly persuaded by the evidence, that there was enough intelligence to justify the decision to go to war in Iraq.

LAHOOD: Well, and that’s why over 300 members of the House and the vast majority of the Senate, including Senator John Kerry voted for a resolution to allow the president to go in and invade and liberate Iraq, because we felt that the information that was presented to us — and I don’t see many dissenters out there, Deborah, I really don’t. There’s still an awful lot of support for the president’s policy, including in part I think Senator Kerry.

The problem is…

NORVILLE: So do you think that it’s Monday morning quarterbacking and these are people who are just upset and have an axe to grind. Or do you think they’re looking at the intelligence and genuinely questioning it?

LAHOOD: I think what it is, it’s an effort by a whole group of people tied to the Democratic Party who want to elect John Kerry by trashing the president. And this is a hot-button issue. This is one of the defining issues in the campaign: the war in Iraq. So they can put a documentary — this is “Fahrenheit 9/11,” reprised. This is the sequel to it, Deborah. There’s no question about that.

NORVILLE: Let me let Mr. Greenwald respond. And then we’re going to get you in here, too, Cliff May.

First of all, the financing, it’s true, moveon.org had a role in financing the distribution of this film.

GREENWALD: Says it in big bold letters all across it. I’m thrilled that they partially give me the money. They never looked at a frame of film. They never told me what to say and they never interfered. And come from Hollywood, where people interfere all the time, no. 1.

NORVILLE: Are you trying to shape the course of the election?

GREENWALD: No.

NORVILLE: Do you want people to vote Democrat come November 2?

GREENWALD: My personal feelings and the movie…

(CROSSTALK)

GREENWALD: Let me finish. Let me finish. Excuse me. We’re not on Fox News, you cannot cut me off.

(CROSSTALK)

NORVILLE: Do you want people vote Democratic? Is that your objective?

GREENWALD: No. That is not your objective with the film. In my heart…

LAHOOD: Do you support John Kerry for president?

GREENWALD: Excuse me. Could I finish please?

LAHOOD: Do you support John Kerry for president?

NORVILLE: Hold on just a second. We’ll get there.

GREEWALD: We’re not on Fox News. Cut it out. Personally, I would like people to vote Democrat, that’s not what the purpose of the film.

As you notice, I never in the movie, say who you should vote for. We never focus on that. And there are Republicans in the film. The only thing we talk about — and I’m sorry that these gentlemen won’t address the issue — let’s talk about the reasons we were given to go to war, do they still believe and accept the reasons that the president gave us? The 23 experts say those reasons were not valid.

NORVILLE: Let’s bring Cliff May into the discussion. Mr. May, you are a former reporter for the New York Times, have also served as a spokesperson for the Republican National Committee. So you have a variety of experiences behind you. Are you persuaded that the intelligence presented before the war was as accurate as the administration intended it to be?

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Deborah, this is what is important for people to understand wherever they come down politically, our intelligence has been substandard, the intelligence delivered to President Bush was substandard, the intelligence to president Clinton was substandard and it goes back a long way.

Robert Baer, who is on this show now, has written some very good books. In one of them, he talks about being an agent in the U.K. And knowing very well in which mosques terrorists were being recruited. He was prohibited from doing investigation in those mosques by CIA rules. And Bob, I know you’ll correct me if you think I’m wrong.

When you don’t have good intelligence collection and you don’t often have good analysis, you are left to all kinds of deduction. For example, in 1998 when Saddam Hussein refused to allow the inspectors to do their job and they eventually had to leave, the deduction that was made by President Clinton, by Vice President Gore was that Saddam Hussein was restocking his arsenals of weapons of mass destruction.

Keep in mind that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction in the past, had the recipes and materials to make them in the future and he had used weapons of mass destruction. Keep in mind that in 1991, we found out that his nuclear weapons program was further along than the CIA had estimated. Keep in mind that when Libya gave up the weapons program, they were further along than the CIA estimated. We need better intelligence than this, but we also need to stop blaming like this.

NORVILLE: Does a film like this serve the cause of making it better?

MAY: No, this doesn’t. This film, I do think, is propagandistic. I think it’s taking kernels of truth and then distorting in a vendetta against President Bush, just as this producer has a vendetta against Fox News. That doesn’t help people to understand the problem, or how we go about solve it. And it’s a serious problem at a time when we are fighting a war against terrorists, who seek to destroy us.

NORVILLE: Congressman, is there an effort afoot — you’ve seen the recommendations from the 9/11 commission, you’ve seen all the discussions that have gone on. Is there a movement afoot on Capitol Hill right now, to do something to enable the agents in the field to get better intelligence so that it goes up the chain more expeditiously and it gets accurately to the people who really need to be able to process this?

LAHOOD: Well, I think there is, Deborah, and that’s why the hearings have been going on. And that’s why the president has come out in support of the so-called intelligence czar. That’s why there will be a bill before Congress this fall in September, late September, to try and create an opportunity to implement the 9/11 recommendations, many of which are very, very significant and important recommendation that I think Congress is really going to try to follow through on.

NORVILLE: I think that’s something I’m seeing heads bob up and down across the board. We’ll take a break on that affirmative note. We’ll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NORVILLE: We’re back now talking about the new documentary called “Uncovered: The War On Iraq.” There’s a clip in the movie where one of the claims is that the administration has just simply gotten too involved with CIA information and with the CIA in general. Here’s a glimpse of the movie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAER: The whole purpose of the CIA was to leave the people out at Langley. That’s why they’re not in Washington, they’re in Northern Virginia away from the White House, away from Congress. Leave them alone. Ask them what they think, but don’t tell them to rethink their positions. Because then you come up with nonsense like we saw.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE: Congressman is, there a concern on Capitol Hill that there’s too much crossover between the administration and what goes on in Langley?

LAHOOD: Well, look, the CIA is there to provide the very best information that can be provided to the president and his team so that decisions can be made about where people are in the world that want to hurt Americans, hurt our American system or go after our embassies. That’s what the CIA is about, to collect information and provide it to provide it to the highest officials including those of us that serve on the House Intelligence Committee and the Senate Intelligence Committee and to the president and his team. That’s the purpose of the CIA.

NORVILLE: But Bob Baer, your point in making that in the movie was what?

BAER: The point is the CIA’s politicized. It is truly, truly broken. Congress looked into the CIA in the 1970’s and it got a little too deep into its operation and was blamed for wrecking the CIA. The Church/Pike (ph) committees.

Congress has not had enough oversight to take a look at this intelligence, and I think that’s what has to change. We have to…

LAHOOD: You know Deborah, the criticism in the report — Deborah, the criticism in the 9/11 commission is that Congress has too much oversight, that there are far too many committees. You can’t have it both ways here.

NORVILLE: What do you think, Ray McGovern, ought to be done?

MCGOVERN: You can have too many committees with not enough oversight.

NORVILLE: What do you think the answer is?

MCGOVERN: Well, the answer is to depoliticize the process…

LAHOOD: Well, you don’t depoliticize about it by putting a documentary out.

MCGOVERN: May I continue, Congressman? What is really necessary is to take a couple of steps back and get perspective on this. And I made the point before that the decision — Congressman LaHood is part right, that the CIA is there to inform decisions, OK? But the decision to make war in Iraq had nothing to do with the intelligence, it had everything to do with oil and Israel.

MAY: That is such nonsense and that exposes your whole agenda here.

MCGOVERN: May I please continue.

MAY: Please do, but I want to respond to that kind of nonsense.

NORVILLE: I will come to you, Cliff.

MCGOVERN: Let me explain here. We had 9/11 and before 9/11, both Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice were clear in saying Saddam Hussein has no weapons of mass destruction. 9/12, the president is trying to get Richard Clarke to blame it on Iraq. On March 2, the president ducks his head into a room where Condoleezza Rice is talking with senators and using an F word saying, and he says, we’re going to take him out, F Saddam. We’re going to take him out. In June, Richard Haas, the head of policy planning, wants to talk to the president and is told by Condoleezza Rice, don’t waste your breath. The decision has been made.

NORVILLE: Let me stop you there, because we are limited in time. Cliff May, please.

MAY: A couple of things. George Tenet was CIA director under both President Clinton and Bush, as you know. We know from Bob Woodward’s book that when President Bush said to George Tenet, do you think that these stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction still exist, George Tenet, the head of the CIA said, Mr. President, it is a slam dunk. He repeated that, a slam dunk.

Now, we do have a broken system, but not for the reasons Mr. Mcgovern says. The fact that we have a broken system should be obvious from 9/11. Here was the most catastrophic attack in American history. Throughout the 1990’s, al Qaeda was preparing for it. They trained 20,000 terrorists in Afghanistan. Did the CIA know about it? What did the CIA recommend we do about it? Could the CIA really not foresee that a plane would be used to knock down buildings when planes have been used to deliver bombs against Americans in…

(CROSSTALK)

MAY: 20 years ago?

NORVILLE: Well, that’s sort of off the message of this. And we’ve heard that and we know that it’s yet another ball that got dropped.

MAY: The CIA is broken in a lot of ways. And one of the things is that what the CIA needs to be doing is not what Mr. Mcgovern is doing, which is spouting policy and conspiracy theories. The CIA needs to collect intelligence, needs to evaluate that intelligence and give it to policy makers to make policy.

But too many people like Mr. Mcgovern, they have their own agenda, they want to make the policies themselves, they don’t want people like President Bush to do it and they want to blame everybody but themselves for the failures of the CIA throughout the 1990’s and before.

NORVILLE: Last word goes to our filmmaker.

GREENWALD: Twenty-three people I interviewed, 450 years experience with the government, weapons inspectors, Pentagon, foreign service and CIA, to a man and a woman, they agreed that the information was distorted and the information was misused. And that’s a debate we need to have and I’d I love to have it with these gentlemen after they’ve seen the movie at another time.

NORVILLE: All right. The movies called “Uncovered.” I’m going to let that be the last word, sir. We are totally out of time. But I’ll end it with a quote from Mark Twain, “Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and the government when it deserves it.” We’ll be back.

Thanks to Robert Greewald, Ray McGovern, Bob Baer, Cliff May and Congressman Ray LaHood.