The Early Show

Among those who’ve been watching Secretary Rumsfeld’s testimony and the fallout from the abuse scandal, conservative commentator Clifford May and Democratic strategist Ron Klain. They’re both in Washington, DC, this morning.

Good morning to both of you.

Mr. CLIFFORD MAY (Foundation for the Defense of Democracies): Good morning.

Mr. RON KLAIN (Democratic Strategist): Good morning.

MITCHELL: Mr. Klain, I’ll begin with you. In your mind, should Secretary Rumsfeld resign?

Mr. KLAIN: I think he should resign. I think our policy in Iraq is not working. He’s the architect of it. The latest problems with this prison are just the latest example of a series of failures in Iraq. Not only w–I think, he should resign, I think he will resign. I mean, he may hang on till the June 30th hand-over. That could be a face-saving exit, but President Bush has asked Congress for $25 billion for Iraq. Congress is not going to write that check with Donald Rumsfeld at the helm.

MITCHELL: Clifford May, let me ask you that same question. Should Secretary Rumsfeld resign?

Mr. MAY: I–I don’t think so. First, I don’t think so because there’s no evidence, none whatsoever, that Donald Rumsfeld or the highest offices in the Pentagon authorized or condoned or in any way knew what was taking place in this–in this prison. Why would they want the kinds of abuses that occurred to occur? It makes no sense at all that they would. Secondly, let’s keep in mind we still have a war to fight and there are Americans right now risking their lives, in some cases sacrificing their lives. Do we really need a shakeup at the Pentagon right now when we’re trying to fight this w–fight this war and–and win it? And by the way, the people who committed these abuses, they betrayed their comrades, men and women in uniform, and they betrayed the millions of Iraqis who want us to succeed as we try to help them establish a decent society. Wh–what happened here was awful, but Saddam Hussein committed genocide. He massacred people by the hundreds of thousands…

MITCHELL: Well, Mr.–Mr. May…

Mr. MAY: …which…

MITCHELL: …let me as–let me ask you this.

Mr. MAY: Go ahead. I’ve got a little echo there.

MITCHELL: Secretary Rumsf–Secretary Rumsfeld did say yesterday, ‘There are more pictures. There ar–perhaps is video of some of these abuses.’ He said, ‘Thi–this stuff should not be released.’ What do you think? Should the public get to see this new stuff?

Mr. MAY: Well, right now, what you’ve got if–you know, if Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein put together $100 million for a public relations and public affairs campaign in Washington, they couldn’t have gotten anything like this. This is awful, awful stuff. Obviously, we need to do what we do well in a democratic society, which is thoroughly investigate and, frankly, thoroughly expose and make corrections. And it’s important that the world understand what we do here in the US is not what is done elsewhere. Believe me, there’s no news shows right now in North Korea asking why a train blew up and–and leveled a school. There’s no columnist in Iran talking about the repression of the Bihin and other religious minorities.

MITCHELL: Well, what…

Mr. MAY: When Saddam Hussein committed his crimes, genocide, feeding people into plastic shredders, there was no discussion in the Arab and Muslim media of the world or very much…

MITCHELL: Right. Mr. Klain…

Mr. MAY: …here in this country as well.

MITCHELL: Let me b–b–bring Mr. Klain back in here. What do you think?

Mr. KLAIN: Su…

MITCHELL: Should these new pictures be released to the public?

Mr. KLAIN: Sure. I think the truth has to come out. I think that’s–look, if this network, if CBS had not aired these pictures in the first place, I doubt we’d be having this discussion we’re having right now. So Secretary Rumsfeld was warned about this months ago. I read a clip. He certainly didn’t want this to happen, but the Pentagon ignored the warnings from the Red Cross. They ignored warnings from the State Department. They ignored warnings from President Bush’s handpicked leader in Baghdad.

Mr. MAY: Can I…

Mr. KLAIN: This has been going on and known about for months. Nothing was done about it. Only–things only happen when the truth comes out, and look, I–I certainly would…

Mr. MAY: Excuse me. Excuse me. Ron, let me jus…

Mr. KLAIN: I certainly agree with Cliff. I certainly agree with Cliff. Cliff, let me finish.

Mr. MAY: Yeah.

Mr. KLAIN: I certainly agree with you that–that–that, you know, there–this stuff is not being publicized. Bad things aren’t being publicized in other dictatorships or ruthless countries like North Korea and Iran. That’s not our standard. We have a higher standard in America.

MITCHELL: Oh…

Mr. KLAIN: And the problem is that the leadership at the Pentagon is failing the young men and women who are serving over there, serving courageously, serving heroically.

MITCHELL: But…

Mr. KLAIN: There’s a young woman profiled on the front page of The Washington Post…

MITCHELL: Right.

Mr. KLAIN: …today who was an assistant manager of Papa John’s…

MITCHELL: Right.

Mr. KLAIN: …who ran this pr–prison…

MITCHELL: Mr. Klain, I’m going to have to stop you right there. We’re running…

Mr. KLAIN: …who–who–who had gotten no training in the Geneva Convention.

MITCHELL: Clifford May–Clifford May…

Mr. MAY: Yeah.

MITCHELL: …I’m going to give you 10 seconds.

Mr. MAY: Yeah. Ron, I–I disagree on one part of this. This–the investigations on this began back last fall. There was a report as–in–in January. There were people charged on this. The military was functioning in terms of doing the investigations necessary. The public relations was handled awfully on this, absolutely terribly, but the system of investigations was working. People have been charged and the investigations will go forward.

MITCHELL: We are going to have to end it right there for now. Clifford May and Ron Klain, both in Washington, thank you so much for joining us this morning.

Mr. KLAIN: Thank you.

MITCHELL: We appreciate it.

Mr. MAY: Thanks for having me.

GRETCHEN CARLSON (Co-host): A spirited debate.

MITCHELL: The debate continues.

CARLSON: Yes.

MITCHELL: Yes.

CARLSON: And it will continue.