Dolans Unscripted

That said, there’s another controversy that has reared its ugly head. Proven or otherwise. We’ll discuss it with our special guest. But the scandal in the “Oil for Food” program, started in 1996, 2003. Basically, to feed Iraqi people. How was it done? What’s gone wrong? Claudia Rosett, is a senior fellow with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

Hello, Claudia.

CLAUDIA ROSETT, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Good morning.

KEN DOLAN: What is the mess . . .

DARIA DOLAN: Before we do that, I think for some people, they aren’t even understanding what the original United Nations “Oil for Food” program was.

ROSETT: Sure.

DARIA DOLAN: Would you explain that first?

ROSETT: It was meant to be a program meant to bring relief to the people of Iraq, who were under sanctions. Iraq was under sanctions. The idea was that the U.N. would let Saddam Hussein, sell oil solely to use it to bring in humanitarian supplies, things to help the people.

KEN DOLAN: Since you have an asset — obviously a world class Claudia – I’m speaking to you about Saddam Hussein — its called oil. We don’t want you to use the proceeds for anything else than to feed your people. Because they’re going to die if they don’t get feed. So on paper — I think 1996, to 2003, great idea.

DARIA DOLAN: Who was minding the books? Who was keeping an eye on these transactions?

ROSETT: Well, the United Nations. The whole idea was to keep Saddam, from abusing this. So the United Nations would supervise, monitor. They would collect a commission for doing this. This is where we start to get into trouble. The program was set up so that they would collect the commission from Saddam, from his oil. So basically, they were being paid by Saddam Hussein, to supervise . . .

KEN DOLAN: Is it the fox in the hen house?

ROSETT: It’s pretty much that arrangement, yeah. Let’s take it one step past the U.N. Were there countries involved who should have been watching this?

ROSETT: Absolutely, the U.N. Security Council.

KEN DOLAN: Were we involved? Was the U.S. involved?

ROSETT: We were supposed to be watching it. We were some of the better ones. We actually looked and we did internally raise objections, try to do things. But then you get to countries like France or Russia, which began – – Saddam, gamed this whole thing and the U.N. let him. France and Russia . . .

DARIA DOLAN: What you’re saying is, Claudia, the money that was collected from the sales of oil didn’t go to the Iraq people for food?

KEN DOLAN: Some of it did or none of it did?

ROSETT: Some of it did. But if you look at the cost, basically, what it took to get some of it to the Iraqi people . . .

KEN DOLAN: Give us some numbers Claudia. In those years period how much money supposedly for food was generated that we’re talking about?

ROSETT: OK. The U.N. put the figure — well, for food and medicine, the original aim of the program — about $15 billion by U.N. figures. The U.N. then said the total of relief was about $31 billion. Or actually, their numbers never add up. Its part of what Paul Volcker, has to investigate. Or maybe $39 billion. But into that . . .

KEN DOLAN: What’s a bill hear, a billion there?

ROSETT: Into that was factored things like — the U.N. began approving Saddam’s, purchasing of Mercedes Benz’s . . .

KEN DOLAN: Take the kids to school, with their lunches.

ROSETT: Exactly. The famous Olympic Sports Stadium — you know, his son, Uday ran Olympic sports. Equipment for the ministries that in, Iraq, you’re not talking about the ministries of justices and information. That’s not what we think of as justice and information.

KEN DOLAN: It looks like it was a palace . . .

ROSETT: The secret police, yeah.

DARIA DOLAN: Claudia, now that you and others have been investigating, been on the trail of the paperwork involving this. We’re discovering — and we made mention of one of your findings — that supplies of milk, supposedly purchased by Saddam Hussein, were purchased from a Russian oil company. Didn’t anybody else read this stuff before people like the Foundation for Defense of Democracies got involved?

ROSETT: A few did. There are some, you know, private individuals who are looking into this and asking questions about it. But officially, no. There has been no serious investigation. There’s one that’s now begun . . .

KEN DOLAN: We’re called for this one. Paul Volcker’s, going to chair it. How did it finally happen after all this time?

DARIA DOLAN: How did it erupt?

ROSETT: It finally erupted because the Iraqis themselves said something has to be done. And the Iraq Governing Council hired an adviser . . .

KEN DOLAN: How’s Chalabi, how’s he involved?

ROSETT: Oh this one — two things. One is, in bringing this to light I think one can only commend wherever it came from. It’s important. The second thing is there are various — this scandal has so many pieces that you have to sort of break it out, what’s what. The Iraqis — there’s a list that came out in January that cited — and this is not proven. But this is one of the things now that needs investigating. That named a whole set of some highly-placed individuals, including the head of the “Oil for Food” program, Benon Sevan. And alleged that they received oil allocations from Saddam. In other words, gifts from — in other words, bribes. That’s one line of investigation.

It was the — basically, it was the fall of Saddam, and documents began to surface. And they produced for this list. Which the Iraq Governing Council asked private lawyers and accountants to look into. Claude Hankes- Drislsma (ph), who testified yesterday, took a look, food to Iraq in December. Took a look, and sent a letter to Kofi Annan, at the U.N. a letter saying I strongly urge you to take the moral high ground. From everything I’m seeing this program is horribly corrupt. Start an independent investigation.

DARIA DOLAN: But in the meantime in your work on the article that we read, Claudia, there’s also the very strong possibility that there was money that — while Saddam was paying off politicians and buying Mercedes and bribing U.N. officials — he was also possibly sending money to al Qaeda?

ROSETT: That’ entirely possible. Again, these are avenues that have opened up that seriously need inquiry. Since the fall of Saddam and other things. As documents have surfaced, he set up through this program front companies all over the world. In places — like middleman — Panama, Cyprus, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, these were corridors through which money could have flowed to anybody. And given his predilections, his history, those really need checking out. That’s scary.

DARIA DOLAN: The Foundation for Defense and Democracies, what is this organization?

ROSETT: It’s a foundation based in Washington that basically looks at the importance of democratic institutions in dealing with the war on terror. This has bearing because when you start a relief program, this should have been an open program. The U.N. should have opened its books. That’s what I began saying when I first looked at it . . .

KEN DOLAN: Are you a fan of the U.N.? And what it’s done? I don’t want you to get so editorial but — I will tell you what we think. We think it’s a rat hole of money. And maybe it’s done some wonderful thing. But this kind of money, billions and billions and billions. How did this escape everybody? How stupid are we?

ROSETT: Because the U.N. keeps it secret. And this is what needs opening up. Because you get these gentile answers that it’s all under control. Which is desperately dangerous. The reason they must not go back into Iraq until they have fixed this. It’s dangerous.

DARIA DOLAN: Claudia, one last question. There are critics of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies that indicate that the foundation’s total support of Israel is almost anti-theoretical to what was going on with this “Oil for Food.” And therefore you want to find something bad out of it. You want to expand it beyond terrorism.

ROSETT: No. For one thing, I began covering this before I was affiliated with them. I covered other things. They do other things. Beyond that — no, the support for Israel is based on the fact that Israel’s a democratic country. In fact I hope desperately the Palestinians are able to get out from under the terrorists who basically have kept it under their thumb.

I would — that is, in fact, the thing one would like to see. Part of it, that what was so terrible in Iraq, this whole thing was a deal between the U.N. and Saddam, that imposed central planning on the people of Iraq. And you know, basically, over and over — no, the argument is, freedom, disclosure, transparency, for the people of the Middle East. Not deals with their tyrants. That’s what the FDD is also all about.

DARIA DOLAN: And for the members of the U.N. keep on the hunt.

ROSETT: Absolutely.

KEN DOLAN: Claudia, follow us along with this. This could be a long investigation. We want to touch base with you from time to time if you don’t mind.

ROSETT: With pleasure.

KEN DOLAN: Thank you, Claudia Rosett, very much.