American Morning

Welcome back.

Almost 22 past the hour on a Tuesday morning.

April now the deadliest month for the U.S. military since it entered Iraq about a year ago. More than 70 U.S. troops have been killed in Iraq so far this month. On the other side, we are told, 700 members of the Iraqi insurgents are dead, as well.

Let’s debate that issue today; also, John Kerry’s middle class misery report.

Democratic strategist Victor Kamber and former RNC Communications Director Cliff May back with us live in Washington.

Kamber and May we call it.

Good morning, gentlemen.

VICTOR KAMBER, THE KAMBER GROUP, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Good morning.

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES, FORMER REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Good morning.

HEMMER: Nice to have you both here.

You know, Cliff, one of the many human faces in this war continues to be, over the past week, the hostages taken. Thomas Cahill (ph) is just — Hamil, rather — is just one person out of Mississippi.

How does the U.S. fight this, when more than 27 people are either held hostage or unaccounted for at this point?

MAY: It’s very difficult. I mean, look, we can beat and defeat terrorists and barbarians like this who take hostages, innocent civilians who kill children, who kill women. But it’s hard to do it without involving yourself in the same kind of methods, without lowering yourself to the same kind of moral standards the other side has.

What’s important is that we learn how to fight what’s called the small war, a counterinsurgency, anti-terrorism. We haven’t studied that over the past 20 years. We haven’t figured out how to do it. But we have to. You can’t leave these barbarians in charge of that country.

HEMMER: So you’re saying this is learning on the job, aren’t you?

MAY: I’m afraid that’s exactly what it is. Look, the book that is used by the military to fight these kinds of wars was written in 1940. If you were a Pentagon official, the way you got high in your career was not to focus on counterinsurgency and terrorism, and that’s been true since the 1950s.

HEMMER: That learning curve has been tough this month alone…

MAY: Very tough.

HEMMER: … with more than 73 dead.

Victor, let’s talk about John Kerry’s proposal. You can see it in the “Washington Post” today.

How do you get the U.N. involved at this point, if that’s the route you want to take?

KAMBER: Well, you just go and ask. I don’t think it’s a big deal. I don’t think it’s — I think what Cliff just said, ironically, I agree, and it’s my biggest probably complaint and anger at this administration — ill prepared, not prepared for what was — what a common sense would say was going to happen. We were not dealing with a world power when we went to Iraq. We were dealing with petty dictators and small time terrorists. And the fact that we weren’t prepared for what was taking place and is taking place, shame on us.

And I’ll — and shame on this administration. And in terms…

HEMMER: But if it turns…

KAMBER: And in terms of going to the world, we now need to say OK, let’s — we made a mistake, we weren’t as prepared as we thought in terms of how to respond, we need your help, world. We need you to come with us and join with us. And there’s no answer that France and Germany and China and Russia join with us that they’ll stop the kind of terrorism that’s taking place. But hopefully, hopefully, with the condemnation of the rest of the world against Iraq and these people, we can bring some order. MAY: Bill, it’s so hyper-partisan of my friend Victor to say this administration and not also include the previous administration and all the administrations before that.

KAMBER: It doesn’t matter. This is the one that’s at stake. MAY: OK. But you’re turning this for partisan purposes and you’re politicizing an important issue.

KAMBER: No. I want to end this war. I want to end dying. MAY: I do, too. Now, let me also point out, when you talk about the U.N., we now know that the U.N. was complicit with Saddam Hussein in stealing billions of dollars of oil wealth from the Iraqi people. We know that when we’ve turned things over to the U.N. before — in Kosovo, Bosnia, Rwanda, Cambodia — the U.N. let millions of people die.

So when you say turn it over to the U.N., what you’re really saying is we don’t want to deal with it and we don’t really care what happens.

KAMBER: Now we’re accusing the U.N. of being terrorists and murderers and criminals… MAY: I didn’t say that and you know I didn’t.

KAMBER: … and oil gougers. No different than — I mean these people that have been kidnapped are Halliburton employees… MAY: Yes.

KAMBER: … who are there to protect the oil wells of Iraq. MAY: Yes, of Iraq, that’s right.

KAMBER: And they’re mercenaries. Let’s not kid ourselves what’s going on here. MAY: Halliburton — wait a minute, you’re saying that Halliburton is the mercenary…

KAMBER: Well, no, I’m saying these people have been hired as mercenaries to protect oil wells. I’m not saying we shouldn’t protect the lives of our people. But let’s not kid ourselves what’s going on there. MAY: Victor, the oil is being protected so it can belong to the Iraqi people, which it hasn’t for the past 30 or 40 years. And, by the way, we do know when we — you should say, as well, that what the U.N. was doing under the U.N. Oil For Food Program is there’s some, maybe the worst corruption we’ve ever seen in the world in terms of the dollar figures, over $5 billion.

KAMBER: No different… MAY: We need an investigation.

KAMBER: No different than the monies we gave Saddam Hussein when we were anti-Iran. MAY: Oh, no, no, no.

KAMBER: I mean when we talk about weapons of mass destruction, where are these weapons today coming from but places like Iran, which now we tend to close our eyes to? MAY: Well…

KAMBER: And we’re not even going after weapons of small destruction, which exist there today, which are killing our people. MAY: You do have a good point about Iran. One of the things that nobody wants to talk about, Republicans or Democrats, is the extent to which Iran is stoking the fire, spending millions of dollars on al- Sadr and others who are fighting us.

Why don’t people want to talk about it? Because we don’t know what to do about Iran…

HEMMER: Gentlemen… MAY: It is a terrorist sponsor and it is part of our problem in Iraq.

HEMMER: Let’s leave it there.

Appreciate the discussion.

A few other topics we wanted to get to. We’re out of time. I apologize about that. We’ll get to them again, though.

Also, later tonight with the president, we’ll see what he says then and perhaps some of the questions both of you have raised today will be answered.

Victor, thanks; Cliff, as well, in D.C.

Appreciate it — Soledad.

O’BRIEN: Still to come this morning, watching and waiting on a judge’s decision in the manslaughter trial of Jayson Williams. Are the charges against him about to be dropped?

Stay with us.

You’re watching AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: In a moment here, the former director of the FBI just one hour away from the 9/11 Commission in public, under oath and live here on AMERICAN MORNING.

Back in a moment.