Capital Report

Thanks for being with us.

Mr. CLIFF MAY (Republican Strategist; Foundation for Defense of Democracies): Sure.

BORGER: Let me start with both of you about the administration’s pivot on Iraq and the United Nations today. It was a very big deal in Washington. The administration said, ‘Yes, we’re going to do some sharing of responsibilities with other countries.’ A good idea, Ron?

Mr. RON KLAIN (Democratic Strategist): Well, an idea that’s long overdue. Senator Kerry noted yesterday that half the names on the Vietnam Wall are there because a president put pride before the national interest. This administration’s policy has been way too much about slogans and swagger, way too little about statesmanship and strategy. And today’s move to share the burden will save American lives in Iraq and spare the American taxpayers billions of dollars of extra expense.

MURRAY: You buy that, Cliff?

Mr. MAY: I wish that were true. Look, first of all, I think it’s going to be very hard, harder than people think, to get Jacques Chirac and Kofi Annan to come to agreement with George Bush. They want the UN to lead the effort in Iraq. We know that we have to maintain authority for both political reconstruction and for the military effort, that we really do. Second, there’s only so much they–look, if they can make a deal and bring in Indian troops and troops from Fiji, I’m all for that; so is the administration. And it’s important the administration try; otherwise, the president’s critics will have great talking points. But at the end of the day, will this succeed, and how much good will it do? I’m dubious.

BORGER: Well, but Congressman Kolbe and Senator Chuck Hagel are both Republicans…

Mr. MAY: I know.

BORGER: …and they were both saying there this administration’s having a tough time with its own party on Capitol Hill.

Mr. MAY: I understand that, and that’s why I say I’m the skunk at this particular garden party. Let me point out to you that John Kerry, who has just come into this race, said recently that 9/11 was America–was this generation’s Pearl Harbor. If that’s true, what does it mean? After Pearl Harbor comes a war, a war on terrorism. And the major theater of that war is in Iraq. That’s going to be tough, and we can’t just hand it over to Kofi Annan to take care of for us.

Mr. KLAIN: Yes, but I think, to stick with the metaphor, when we took on World War II, we had allies. We shared the burden. We fought with other nations.

Mr. MAY: Yes, we did. We had Britain and the Soviet Union.

Mr. KLAIN: And we took–well, no, we had a lot of good people…

Mr. MAY: We didn’t have France because they appeased. We didn’t have Germany because they were against us. We…

Mr. KLAIN: …in World War II. But the point here is this. We had a lot of good allies.

Mr. MAY: We do now.

Mr. KLAIN: President Bush–there’s a tremendous burden in terms of the loss of lives, the loss of American funds over there. We should share that burden. The era of kind of ‘go it alone’ and ‘bring it on’ needs to be brought an end to.

Mr. MAY: It’s…

MURRAY: Are you saying that the administration is now making a mistake by going after…

Mr. MAY: I think because of what you’re hearing from my friend Ron, it’s important the administration make every effort to bring in an international coalition. But I’m not sure it works, and I’m not sure it does much good. At the end of the day…

MURRAY: Do you think this is a fake? Is this like a head fake? You say, ‘OK, we tried, we tried, but they wouldn’t join us, so we…’

Mr. MAY: It’s going to be up to Kofi Annan and Jacques Chirac. How much do they want? How much is Jacques Chirac going to demand economic concessions? How much is…

MURRAY: That’s why we didn’t go to the UN in the first place, because we didn’t want Jacques Chirac to have a say in rebuilding Iraq.

Mr. MAY: The UN is not a democratic organization; it’s not a pro-democracy organization. It was not in favor of Saddam Hussein’s being overthrown. In fact, Jacques Chirac and Kofi Annan were very cozy with Saddam Hussein.

BORGER: OK. Let’s change subjects for a minute and talk about the Democrats gathering tomorrow night in Albuquerque. There’s going to be a big debate. As you said, John Kerry just announced his candidacy officially this week. Howard Dean is, of course, the man to beat. Ron, are they all going to be out there pounding on poor old Howard Dean tomorrow night?

Mr. KLAIN: Well, I don’t know about ‘poor old’ Howard Dean. But I will tell you this. In the past 48 hours, I’ve gotten talking points from three different campaigns…

BORGER: OK.

Mr. KLAIN: …telling me the race is now down to a two-man race between their candidate and Howard Dean. Now what that tells you is two things.

BORGER: And they’re right.

Mr. KLAIN: What that tells you is two things: One, Howard Dean’s had a good summer, and two, they’re all coming after Howard Dean now. I think they should have started earlier. I think they were late to get to this task. But he is going to be the man on the hot seat tomorrow night. And I’ll say one other thing about this. This is the first in a series of three debates this month; the last one right here on CNBC at the end of the month. By the end of that period of time, we’d like to know…

BORGER: We like to close.

Mr. KLAIN: …we’re going to know how well Howard Dean takes the heat from these other candidates.

MURRAY: Is the Howard Dean phenomenon a good thing for President Bush or a bad thing for President Bush?

Mr. MAY: Well, most Republicans who are looking at the field of Democrats would say, ‘Oh, absolutely, bring on Howard Dean.’ This is somebody who is totally not credible on national security issues, and if you have such a candidate, he cannot win. Consider during the Cold War, from the time Lyndon Johnson stepped down in ’69 to ’93 when Clinton came to power, you didn’t have a Democratic president except once, and that was after Watergate…

BORGER: Well…

Mr. MAY: …because national security, Democrats have to show credibility.

BORGER: But you could make the case that Howard Dean would bring out the base of the Democratic Party…

Mr. MAY: Well, what do you mean?

BORGER: …and that that’s what this election will be about, which is Republicans bringing out their base and Democrats bringing out their base.

Mr. MAY: Ah. Howard Dean brings out labor. Howard Dean brings out women.

BORGER: Let me ask Ron this. He’s the Democrat here.

Mr. MAY: Howard Dean brings out minorities. I wonder.

BORGER: Look, I’m going to take a bit of a pundit punt here and say this: The proof will be in the pudding. That is, we’re going to see how these guys do in the primaries, who has appeal, who’s connecting with voters. I’ve been very skeptical of Governor Dean. I’ve thought all along our party was going to nominate someone more in the center. But if Howard Dean really can go out there and beat a very impressive field, then he will be our nominee and he’ll be a great candidate. I still think, though, that it’s going to be John Kerry or Joe Lieberman or Dick Gephardt, someone closer to the center of our party. I still think one of those guys is going to win this race.

Mr. MAY: Let me just point out, I think this is going to be a horse race. I don’t care who the Democrat nominee is. But the only way Howard Dean wins is not going by going through the Democratic base–ACLU vote is not coming out for him–it’s going to be a Democratic Ross Perot who brings in all new voters, kids and people on the left, the anti-war movement. But in the end, I don’t think that works except maybe in DC and Massachusetts.

BORGER: Well, we’ll have to see. Cliff May and Ron Klain, thanks very much for being with us.

Mr. KLAIN: Thank you.